Jay Bakker Quiets a Black Church
Jay speaking to a predominately black church on the subject of changing the church and looking at things differently. They are all for him until he brings up the subject of gay marriage. Painful to watch. But I appreciate the balls it took for Jay to say what he said. Powerful.
posted by Steve at
10/18/2009
36 Comments:
Wow. Good for him!
I know nothing about Jay Bakker, but just by standing up for what he believes to be true, in front of a group of people he must have known would be against it, he's earned my respect here.
Brave. Wrong ... but certainly brave.
Everybody's wrong about something.
ok...wait. why is he wrong?
I think evangelicals believe Bakker was wrong, because he didn't first clear his new theology with the white people... it's a classic evangelical struggle, really.
What the crap is wrong with Jay and you who applaud his "bravery". It takes way more balls to be about the real truth. This humanized BS rolls off the tongue with great ease. Wonder why...
That entirely depends on what you view as the "real truth". It's not as clear-cut as you seem to think. Or would you rather have him preach hatred and homophobia like so many others?
i'd rather love others in truth. Truth is, if you are a homosexual, you don't have to act on it. Just like any sexual behavior that is not between a man and a woman in marriage. Sex with the same gender is clearly wron according to the scripture wether you were born a homosexual or not. No difference between a homosexual or a hypersexual, or an unmarried hetero wanting to have sex outside of marriage. You are not obligated to act on it. Self control is an option. Helps keep one from sinning.
Humans are sexual beings. Telling someone that he must be celibate for life and will never have a choice to be otherwise is extremely cruel - it is asking that person not to be himself.
If you support the Old Testament ban on homosexual sex, presumably you also support the stoning to death of adulterers and disobedient children, and abhor the trimming of beards, the wearing of clothes of mixed fibres and the consumption of seafood...?
Where in the NT does it okay homosexuality?
So, if a guy was born a pedophile, to deny him the ability and opportunity to have sex with children would be to ask him to not be himself? Where is the line? Where is the standard? Or how about those middle aged men who believe they were designed to have sex with young women? When their wives get past their prime should the guy go find that which he was "made for"? Or does love, sacrifice, commitment trump sexual desire?
We are not sexual beings, we are spiritual beings who have been given the gift of sex. If all you are is a sexual being, your life must suck. Sex can never satisfy the soul and if ultimate satisfaction is the goal, or to live out your fullest sexual self, you have no alternative but to explore more and more abstract and deviant expressions to find a higher experience.
And how does putting your junk in an orifice that was never designed to receive it in any way natural? How does that jive with God's perfect design?
Oh and by the way, Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. It seems that like most of us, you want what you want, and will do what it takes to make yourself feel good about it. Doesn't it say somewhere in Scripture that the heart is deceitful above all things? Maybe you're deceiving yourself. Maybe that's why Jesus died - so you don't have to do that anymore. Maybe, just maybe, there is a better way...
Dayn... I am going to let you continue to speak for yourself and the truth you represent. You are doing such a great job I would hate to interrupt you.
Seems you are fresh out of ideas. You should not go the way od=f so many and default to comments like that. I think you can do better
I'm surprised you haven't busted out any bestiality references yet.
There's no discussing this with you, if you truly believe homosexuality is the same as pedophilia - you are too far gone my friend.
"your life must suck"
Ah, an ad hominem attack in place of reasoned debate. A depressingly familiar thing when debating with some Christians, sadly.
Sorry. Should have made not personal. "It must suck" is more the deal. I know when chasing girls back in the day my life sucked for the same reason. There is more to life than sex or sexual orientation. Very low on the list.
Living in and under God's dreams for you is so far above all this.
So, reason with me instead of calling me out. It would be great to actually have a spirited discussion without getting your/my feelings hurt.
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument on this that didn't degrade into nonsense. I'm guilty of this, I'll admit. I would like to enter this without presupposing any position but with an effort to find the truth, God's truth fleshed out in Jesus...
Let's take all the arguments to their furthest end and see where it takes us?
Do you believe homosexuality is the same as pedophilia? This is a very important distinction wouldn't you agree?
What the crap is wrong with Jay and you who applaud his "bravery". It takes way more balls to be about the real truth. This humanized BS rolls off the tongue with great ease. Wonder why...
It seems that like most of us, you want what you want, and will do what it takes to make yourself feel good about it.
Seems you are fresh out of ideas.
Sorry, Dayn, but the above quotes don't sound like someone I could have a reasoned discussion with.
For the record I'm a heterosexual, married man who derives great satisfaction from sex and has no desire to get into more deviant sexual behaviours in order to get more of a buzz. I see no reason why the same should not be true of a homosexual man in a committed, monogamous elationship. That's all I'm going to say on the subject.
No, but your point is that we need to not deny how we are made. Are homosexuals born? Are pedophiles born that way? Are heterosexuals born? You must have some sort of way of dividing up how somebody is made vs. what they do. How do you distinguish which sexual orientation is created and which is acquired, and which is unacceptable?
Barry,
Don't we all tend to figure out what we want and work our environments and philosophies to make it "right". Everyone does. The point is that the source of our problems is that we think with human reasoning and it always gets us in trouble. God's thoughts are the only sober thoughts, and we do well when we latch onto his and behave resultantly.
I find absolutely no thoughts from God that are favorable to a homosexual lifestyle. I am willing to go so far as to think people can be born homosexual, but again, need not act on it. I we were all to act on our base urges we would destroy each other with great subversion and regularity.
The real question is who have you been created to be? God knows that very well and knows what it takes for us to discover it. Trying to stay away from the things He knows are not good for us s part of the process. So is helping the helpless. We find our design somewhere in between these things.
Without tweaking the reality of Scripture, where is homosexuality ok according to God?
"How do you distinguish which sexual orientation is created and which is acquired, and which is unacceptable?" (dayn)
That's a good question.
Pedophilia is just wrong - few will ever argue for it because it makes no sense. An older man and a younger woman is never going to be right - it's just mentally not fair. It's a form of abuse from an adult citizen towards a child - taking advantage of the lack of freedom that child is able to hold or distinguish. This type of thinking is always wrong in all forms of abuse.
As for homosexuality - this is not the same case we are dealing with. Homosexuality is not a form of abuse towards a minor. In most cases these are grown up men and women that chose to be with one another.
And it is true homosexual marriage is not addressed in the bible - it just isn't...neither is abortion mind you yet we still find a way to find biblical justification against it.
What needs to be considered is why a gay person cannot marry another gay person - what sin is being committed towards anyone? Towards society? I don't see the problem to be perfectly honest. I see gay people that are human beings having rights withheld which any heterosexual can access. The sin, if anything, is not allowing a person their rights in a free country (ie: discrimination).
I would have to say since homosexuality is not the norm in society - this is true - only some 10% of people are gay (or less). But because it is not the norm doesn't make it any less real and something meaningful.
You question whether being gay is a choice - and I wonder why you would think some 10% of the population would choose such a sexual endeavor? Even you admit parts going where they do not fit is something that makes no sense - meaning you likely have some dis-taste for the action. It must make you wonder why then so they do these things - things which you would not?
What also needs to be questioned is why gay people would even choose something that ostracizes them? Dayn I am not sure how much you know about the gay community and it's struggles (or if you even care about that) - but these people are tossed out of families and communities for their sexual orientation. Who would choose such a hurtful thing? Honestly, Dayn why would they make a decision like that?
Biblically, there is nothing on this issue - and if you think there is - show me that passage about committed gay couples wanting to get married in any scripture? There is bits n pieces about homosexuality as it was practiced in that day - which usually was more about idolatry than the relationships.
But if you want to continue to dislike gay people and stand against their rights based on scant evidence - at least let your gay friends know.
"I find absolutely no thoughts from God that are favorable to a homosexual lifestyle" (Dayn)
What do you mean by a homosexual lifestyle first off? Are we only talking about the sexual aspect - if so - yes that is not mentioned in the bible...nor is their a handbook for hetersexual sexual lifestyle.
See, here is the thing...heterosexual sexuality is pretty intricate in and of itself - all kinds of positions and various ways to have fun. None of this is addressed in the bible either. How can one know what sexual position is okay for a heterosexual and which are not? So if were addressing solely the sexual act in the term 'lifestyle' lots is not addressed biblically.
But since you said 'lifestyle' - well - many gay people are in committed relationships - I stress the term committment. Biblically, committment is part of marriage. Are you telling me a gay person cannot be committed to another gay person? Admittedly, they may not be able to reproduce (2 become 1) nor even have sex that makes that possible in their relationships - but they can still committ to loving relationships - and this is part of the 2 become 1 idea also....the most key aspect that makes the rest possible.
I am quite okay with gay people being in committed relationships which may not produce children - it just wasn't in the biological cards I guess. Then again, many marriages do not produce children (including my own thus far) and I fail to see the problem with that.
For some reason being gay and getting married is a problem for you - may I ask why? You are not God and you are not gay - so how is this an issue that effects you in any minut way?
Dayn - that wasn't my point but thanks for putting words in my mouth. My point was to say that you equated homosexuality which is a sexual orientation and pedophilia which is a pyscho/sexual dysfunction as found in the DSM. Two very distinct and separate subjects. You are wrong to make such a correlation. I can easily make a distinction between homosexuality and pedophilia. What's disturbing is that you apparently cannot.
Dayn is just a bigot. He drinks too much Kool-Aid.
Wow, it took 26 comments before the word bigot was used. Well done Josh ... if only I was a betting man.
Bigot (along with racist) is now one of those words that is so over used as to be almost meaningless, and is simply brandished to close down discussions. My favourite definition of a bigot: someone who wins an argument with a liberal!
I think Jay Bakker was brave for say something that he knew would be unpopular/controversial amongst the particular audience. However, I think it requires a whole different magnitude of courage to stand in front of a gay pride march denouncing homosexual behaviour.
Taking the comments down a direction it might be better not to go down ... Steve, why do you consider paedophilia pyscho/sexual dysfunction? At what age or stage of physical development does a sexual liaison stop being a paedophile relationship?
My understanding is that Paedophiles feel their attraction to minors is an innate part of their character ... which is why treatments (other than castration) for many are about as effective as 'cures' for homosexuality.
[I am not equating homosexuality and paedophilia before someone accuses me of doing just comparing attitudes]
Rebel -
I consider it such because it is. It is listed in the DSM IV as a psychiatric disorder under the categories of Sexual Disorder.
"This disorder is characterized by either intense sexually arousing fantasies, urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child (typically age 13 or younger). To be considered for this diagnosis, the individual must be at least 16 years old and at least 5 years older than the child."
And I was just watching VH1's "Sex Rehab with Dr. Drew" where the victim of child molestation was speaking about his experiences and here's a HUGE reason pedophilia is a psychological dysfunction... IT HAS A VICTIM. Pedophilia is not an expression of sexual orientation or sexuality... it is an expression of power, control, anger, self-loathing, etc that is carried out on an innocent victim. You CANNOT compare the attitudes of a pedophile and the homosexual. It's not even in the same genre!!
Just to set the record straight right out of the gate ... I'm not at all advocating that paedophilia is not disorder/perversion.
But do want to point out that many of the arguments used by those who hold similar points of view to Jay can be argued for all sorts of sinful behaviour and/or disorders/perversions - even paedophilia if you wanted to (the only argument that doesn't work so well is the 'it doesn't hurt anybody' ... but even that argument has been manipulated to justify child brides etc like the one that the "Prophet" Muhammed took)
Even if the Bible didn't define homosexual behaviour as sinful, for me, any orifice requiring excessive amounts of lubrication for sexual relations has to be unnatural!
Always lots more heat than light generated when the issue of homosexuality is 'discussed'.
"Always lots more heat than light generated when the issue of homosexuality is 'discussed'" (Rebel)
I don't know - I thought I was pretty fair in my crtiques on the subject - even in light of biblical scriptures.
"Even if the Bible didn't define homosexual behaviour as sinful, for me, any orifice requiring excessive amounts of lubrication for sexual relations has to be unnatural!" (Rebel)
Unnatural - but is it sinful? Let's remember one thing - even things that are not natural or the norm or not neccesary sinful. If this were the case people born with some mental disabilities would be considered sinful (being norn without full mental capacity). I would say this condition is not the 'norm' but it isn't sinful either.
I think for most people that want to bash the gay community within Christian circles the only real problem they have with it is the sexual aspect...and women seem to care less then men on this issue. Maybe because we have the magical part that is in question - I don't know.
But like you Rebel, the thought of picturing gay sexual relations disturbs me to some degree - heck I even dislike seeing 2 dudes with moustaches kiss to be honest. But I am not gay - so it makes sense to feel that to some degree. But what doesn't make sense is to deny them the rights to a full life because we don't neccesarily like their sexual behavior.
Jim Bakker was indeed brave to say what he said. The fact that "marriage between members of the same sex" is wrong is not the issue. What is at issue is: Does God's love reach out to everyone? Do we first condemn people for their lifestyles, before we will show them God's unconditional love? Remember who Mary Magdalene was before she met with Jesus? She was a prostitute. Jesus spoke in love to a prostitute! How terrible is that! What about the woman at the well? She wasn't even married to the man she was living with. And what about that "traitor", Zacchaeus, working for the enemy as a collector of his own people's taxes? And what did Jesus say to those who like the Pharisee in the temple considered themselves a cut above everyone else? We know only too well!
grimke::so what your saying is, if they were gay prostitutes it all would be o.k.? Jesus responds in love over all his creation. but what did he tell the woman at the well and what did he say to the prostitutes?
go and SIN no more.. so if the prostitutes were sleeping with the same sex would Jesus still say go and sin no more.
yes! because sexual sin is sin. it is error that needs to be fixed.
homo or hetero.
The key is: LOVE THE SINNER, BUT HATE THE SIN!
Sex is within marriage between one man and one woman! That is the biblical message. The question is: How do we respond to those caught up in sexual immorality of whatever kind - do we condemn them outright as being beyond God's grace for ever or do we show compassion and love towards them, knowing that we too are sinners - but saved by God's grace!
I still haven't seen any biblical evidence for the whole "marriage is between one man and one woman," nor that "God hates fags."
It is funny that when the issue of homosexuality is discussed, those who are against it always bring up the act of sex and talk about how wrong it is for them to have sex, and make allusions to other sex acts that are indeed perverted, and don't go into the orientation. Whereas those who don't think homosexuality is sinful talk about two people in a loving, committed relationship. And those who are against homosexuality are always asking "but how do you make the distinction? (between homosexuality and pedophiles, for instance).
Let's get on the same page, and maybe then we can have a discussion.
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