A Post About Something
Someone told me the other day that I desperately need to post something new to my blog... and my first reponse was, "What blog?" They replied, "Stupid Church People". And I said... "Oh, thaaaat blog!"
Hard to imagine that I might have forgotten about SCP (and I really haven't), but it certainly hasn't been in the forefront of my mind. Moving into a new place, working, life stuff.... all of that means SCP took a backseat for a couple of weeks.
I was walking and talking with a friend last weekend, and we were laughing about the reaction so many people have to this blog and website. It wasn't a long conversation where we analyzed why people reacted on the site the way they do, but it was more of an acknowledgment of just how seriously people take it when you talk about "their church". Or maybe we concluded it's just when you call a segment of the population "stupid"... or maybe... it's the way people react when you use the phrase "blow your (effin) brains out!"
Yes, yes, yes! I know. This site is meant to provoke a response. I admit it. And that's why (by and large) I rarely get upset at people's reactions.
However, one of the things that continually intrigues me is how people urge me to "quit bitching and complaining and start doing something about the church". Well, maybe I have said it before, but let me say it again....
THE SCP BLOG, WEBSITE AND PODCAST IS WHAT I AM DOING ABOUT THE CHURCH!
Now, it may not be what you would like me to do, but it is what I am doing. This IS doing something! And if you can't see that, then this site is named aptly just for you.
Many of you would have me enter back into a mainstream church, get involved in some type of capacity and provoke change as an insider. Others would say that I should start my own church, gather like-minded people around and create our own brand of church "for people that don't like church" or whatever. Several people have mentioned using this platform for an even more "positive" approach in building up the church and encouraging people. And my answer to any and all of these types of suggestions is....
NO.
You may not like what I am doing and how I do it, but my goal and purpose (did I just say "purpose"??) here is to create a place where:
1) Disillusioned and hurting "church people" can see they are not alone.
2) Stupid Church People are provoked (and even pissed off).
3) All "church people" can laugh at themselves.
4) Dialogue can occur among a variety of people and their ideas.
5) The truth is spoken (not necessarily ultimate truth, but honest and straightforward feelings, perspectives and opinions).
When people visit this site, they usually have one of two basic reactions. The first one is they "get it"... and they may stick around and read, respond, get involved, form an opinion and then go back into their previously scheduled lives. The second reaction is this... they don't get it or they don't like it. And these people at that point either move on OR they stick around and read, respond, get involved, form an opinion and then go back into their previously scheduled lives.
Call me crazy (how's that for an open invitation), but from where I sit, SCP is DOING SOMETHING. And from the amount of feedback I have gotten over the past two years, it's even doing something that's positive in the lives of some people.
Hard to imagine that I might have forgotten about SCP (and I really haven't), but it certainly hasn't been in the forefront of my mind. Moving into a new place, working, life stuff.... all of that means SCP took a backseat for a couple of weeks.
I was walking and talking with a friend last weekend, and we were laughing about the reaction so many people have to this blog and website. It wasn't a long conversation where we analyzed why people reacted on the site the way they do, but it was more of an acknowledgment of just how seriously people take it when you talk about "their church". Or maybe we concluded it's just when you call a segment of the population "stupid"... or maybe... it's the way people react when you use the phrase "blow your (effin) brains out!"
Yes, yes, yes! I know. This site is meant to provoke a response. I admit it. And that's why (by and large) I rarely get upset at people's reactions.
However, one of the things that continually intrigues me is how people urge me to "quit bitching and complaining and start doing something about the church". Well, maybe I have said it before, but let me say it again....
THE SCP BLOG, WEBSITE AND PODCAST IS WHAT I AM DOING ABOUT THE CHURCH!
Now, it may not be what you would like me to do, but it is what I am doing. This IS doing something! And if you can't see that, then this site is named aptly just for you.
Many of you would have me enter back into a mainstream church, get involved in some type of capacity and provoke change as an insider. Others would say that I should start my own church, gather like-minded people around and create our own brand of church "for people that don't like church" or whatever. Several people have mentioned using this platform for an even more "positive" approach in building up the church and encouraging people. And my answer to any and all of these types of suggestions is....
NO.
You may not like what I am doing and how I do it, but my goal and purpose (did I just say "purpose"??) here is to create a place where:
1) Disillusioned and hurting "church people" can see they are not alone.
2) Stupid Church People are provoked (and even pissed off).
3) All "church people" can laugh at themselves.
4) Dialogue can occur among a variety of people and their ideas.
5) The truth is spoken (not necessarily ultimate truth, but honest and straightforward feelings, perspectives and opinions).
When people visit this site, they usually have one of two basic reactions. The first one is they "get it"... and they may stick around and read, respond, get involved, form an opinion and then go back into their previously scheduled lives. The second reaction is this... they don't get it or they don't like it. And these people at that point either move on OR they stick around and read, respond, get involved, form an opinion and then go back into their previously scheduled lives.
Call me crazy (how's that for an open invitation), but from where I sit, SCP is DOING SOMETHING. And from the amount of feedback I have gotten over the past two years, it's even doing something that's positive in the lives of some people.
posted by Steve at
2/24/2007
65 Comments:
Bravo.
Add me to the list of people who have had a positive experience as a result of coming to SCP, figuring out I wasn't alone in my struggling, my doubting, my disillusionment of my modern church life.
Yes, there were times that I thought [SCP] was crazy. But the truth is, hearing someone who was wrapped up in church like most of us were (or are) verbalize has helped.
**warm fuzzies**
I'm going back to my regularly scheduled life now.
You suck and I hate you. I didn't mean that as a ruthless direct attack.
You see I feel my blog comments are just me having a conversation, like if you were hanging out with me at the mall, or we were having lunch together. I guess it's kinda like you and Josh on your podcasts, ya know.
People are not getting mad at your feelings toward the church, they are getting mad at you for being a dick. You are mean and agenda oriented. So this is why I choose to canstantly antagonise.
Attack the church abroad, but leave the individuals alone.
We get it, whoopie ding dong. Maybe, you can give us some legitimate bible basis for how all these forums are in some way advancing the Kingdom of God.
Never mind don't respond you are above hat.
so you stand up in any particular way, stick your head above the maddening crowd, and you get your friggin' head blown off. just stand, i say, and take the heat you know you're going to get. when we say, "so shoot me!", we should expect to get shot because so many church people carry loaded weapons... like bibles and tracts and platitudes and opinions and expectations. i like what you do, even if you do get shot full of holes. you're on mine, and i wanna be on your blogroll... what does it take guys?
To tell you the truth--this site and others like it (that probably were created as a result of reading this one) have made more sense to me as a human being than anything I have really heard in church. That is sad, but true. I am grateful for exactly what you said--it makes us realize we a re not alone.
Also--people can get upset and they should be attentive to their true feelings and reactions, BUT... we have to be open to criticism if we ever something to be better. If someone wants to "further the kingdom of God," maybe they would benefit from listening to the disillusioned rather than just the fluffy god-speaking, unquestioning, stepford wife churchgoers.
ok peace out--thanks for the new post!
Steve,
This place and the podcast has been such a wonderful thing for me. Keep up the good work, man.
It should be obvious by now that I get something both positive and negative out of this. I think this is the case with most of us. Still, my personal feeling is that it is inadequate to so quickly dismiss the consideration that you should be more proactive. Talking about the problem of AID’s in Africa or the high suicide rate of gay males in the United States may help to comfort people by letting them know that others are aware of these problems, but it sure as hell won’t fix anything unless it’s balanced out with a little elbow grease.
On another note, I am continually struck by the polarized categorizations I see people make on this site. Are all church goers “stupid” simply because they believe in things that you do not? What arrogance! Do you really believe that being liberal or unorthodox is the same thing as being “open minded”? Is there only room for one church in your imagination (perhaps in the case of Josh and Steve it is the church of your past)? Is it fair to judge all churches and all churchgoers by proxy? Why is it that you guys only return (or speak of returning) to the same church situations you just left? Isn’t that just self-sabotage? If you complain about it so much, then why not just try a completely different kind of church the next time you feel ready to go? You would fit right in where I attend. Why do some people feel the need to assume that all church goers are “disillusioned” or “unquestioning” simply because they get something out of it that you do not? This is the apex of feeble minded nonsense and insular thinking.
TULSA: ...leave the individuals alone. That's not possible. You know that the church is made up of people... and it's people that do or say or act stupid. Now the use of the word attack... that's possibly how you feel since you were the target once and I can understand that. But I have been aggressive towards others so I guess "attack" could be one word to describe it. And everyone has an agenda... never said I didn't.
HA KOHEN: I agree with you. I too get something positive and negative out of this as well. And raising awareness to those who have their heads buried so deep they can't see a problem is "doing something". And I guess beyond that I have done a little more as I correspond and encourage people who have written me for input and advice regarding there individual situations. Who knows, maybe something more is needed... but right now this is what I am doing. Maybe that's a better way of saying it.
And I think I have talked about situations where I return to the same churches I have been a part of... but that was early on... when I was a bit more closeminded to other options and other traditions. Trust me, that isn't the case at all.
I am not sure you were addressing me, but let me clarify something. In my personal relationships off-site, I have never discouraged anyone from embracing the church they are currently attending and benefitting from.... it's not like I am out there recruiting people to "the SCP way" or anything. There is no SCP evangelism. My friend called me the other day and said she was going to her Ash Wednesday service and quite frankly, I had forgotten she observed those traditions since we have had so many like-minded conversations about the church. It was refreshing to hear her perspectives on that service and what it meant to her... and I do admire and respect that.
I agree with you totally, Steve. SCP has been a real encouragement to me, not just because it shows that I'm not on my own (there ARE others who get pissed off with church culture!) but because in itself it is an impetus for me to try and do something about the problems in my own church. As I'm not (no longer, anyway) in any kind of leadership role I may be peeing into the wind, but I'm going to do all I can regardless.
Actually, a few weeks ago I was asked to "preach the Word" at our morning service tomorrow, so I'm going to speak about honesty in faith (yeah, that's where I got the title of my blog from, it's an ongoing personal theme) and how questioning everything about church culture and beliefs, even the old bogeyman of DOUBT, is actually a good thing and should be encouraged because it can lead to a mor emature, tested faith. So I guess I won't be asked to speak again after that ;o)
Hey, Thedavidsoftulsa, what's with the hatred? Not exactly a "Christian" quality, is it? (Not officially, anyway.)
CHRIS: You aren't alone and finding that out is HUGE not only in this arena but in other situations of life. Hang in there.
NAKEDPASTOR: Thanks for the positive feedback. I really need to spend more time at your site... and I haven't done that. As for adding you to our site... I don't add everyone under the sun because I hate LONG blogrolls. I only add sites I visit regularly. Let me check yours out some more. Fair enough?
MARIE: Glad to see you around here. It's nice to see women visiting the site and chiming in more and more as time passes. Dig the estrogen.
BRUCE: Long time listener... LOL. Thanks.
Well I can admit that your way of doing things is not the way I would do things. Often I see SCP as a bitch platform but that does not mean I don't get the bitch it only means I would handle it different.
I can't say one is better then the other I just don't follow the thought pattern that you do in how you handle stuff. I can also say I have never sat in the Pastor chair and that means I can't really get some things that you might be able to. But unlike what seems like most I have always said regardless of reaction what I think in church, and to my other church peeps. Even when that meant misunderstanding and isolation. I just accept that as part of speaking your mind. I have never felt like I could not but again my view of Church is very simple as you know,
What I worry about sometimes when people go the route you often take is can it become so comfortable that it always becomes the reaction or first step in matters. That can apply to any type action but some actions are always more aggressive in nature and I often wonder if that is a wise start. I worry about any action that becomes the constant first choice for anyone.
In the end though we all have to live with ourselves and our choices. If you feel a sense of mental peace in how you are taking on the things that you feel need to change then who am I or anyone else to tell you it's the wrong path.
I still read everything you write and make public I don't have to agree and I don't get bent if you think different, I just don't see it as my place.
Some of the aggressive debate that goes on baffles me cause I don't understand often if it is about point or really about ones own self. I stay out of it unless I honestly think there is something I can add. Often I don't read the comments when they get to a point where it seems to me no one really cares to speak ones thoughts in an effort to be understood, the comments start being about proving one's position is right..or bomb and leave which is like name calling.
So Some of us, or maybe just me read, understand, agree, disagree, love you and all that just kinda on the quiet side :)
When we getting together again ?
Your loved in case you forget or get in your own way :P I do it all the time
Hey! Speaking of blogrolls, can I get my link to point to my actual site? I lost 'demerging', when I quit blogging the 23rd time.
SCP was instrumental in me blogging and quitting so many times. You guys initially inspired me. Then you pissed me off. Then you inspired me some more. In all the inspired pissing, I somehow found a balance that keeps me in 'c'hurch, while focusing more than ever on 'C'hurch.
I know I don't always agree with every single thought, but you've always been cool enough to let me vent or question.
SCP is the site that started me on this journey of discovery and dissatisfaction. I'm glad to know you guys and support you as you find your "purpose" and continue to live Your Best Life Now!
May God bless you indeed & enlarge your territory...
[/pop-evangelical-references]
:)
I agree the SCP blog and podcast are doing something...
They're making the church people THINK about various aspects of the church, about why they may be so damaging or whatnot. Hopefully, some of these church people will become--or are in the process of becoming--not so stupid. (I'd like to think I'm one of those people...but lord knows I probably have a ways to go to erase all the stupidity. ;))
Now back to my previously-scheduled living...
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I always love to see the posts where you encourage those around you to pat you on the back, and agree that what your doing is wonderful and nobel.
Wow its almost like you preached a sermon of self worth, niiiiice.
I always love visiting your church Pastor Steve. I even teared up a little at the end of your sermon (snif, snif).
I'll have to say that there are times that I think you guys are crazy, but what you're doing helps a lot. I hate it when it gets messy in the comments area, though, but nothing can help that.
Thanks for blogging :D
People are not getting mad at your feelings toward the church, they are getting mad at you for being a dick. You are mean and agenda oriented. So this is why I choose to canstantly antagonise.
You know what I find refreshing about you, Tulsa? You don't wrap up what you say in Bible talk and pretend that you aren't really an asshole, but that you really... you know... just care, man.
I also love it when the cronies of the site jump in and speak on behalf of hiding Pastor Steve.
It is interesting Zeke - whom I know will break down my comment line by line - And I cannot wait for that!!!- How you always feel the need to make it seem as though your "Bible Talk" means something.
Just because you feel the need to do it in every comment, makes you so much better....I know...
shefrog, I want to respond to you but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you elaborate?
shefrog, the reason I'm a fanboi of Josh and Steve is because they are an enema to a constipated church.
nice post steve.
I would however suggest that your "purpose", as you reluctantly call it, goes only as far as this 'forum' you've created. Not that this is bad any way, but when it comes to pro-active change, creating a platform and then letting the top spin while all the ants go running around it, really doesn't effect a whole lot of change...
But hey, it really doesn't have to. I guess someone like me sees what you've created in SCP and just can't help the urge to use this towards re-building the church...or...whatever...
Bottom line is, you've created a unique environment that has attracted an amazingly diverse audience, and for that alone I applaud you. Let the people make the difference, you just keep on providing the facility for it!!
keeponrockin
Debates (or perhaps mere arguments) have gotten awful heated 'round these parts. Or has it always been so? I dunno. Regardless, excuse me for failing to address the flaming.
..personally, I think what Steve may be providing here is a safety net for the disillusioned. I've encountered a fair share of people who used to be christian because they grew up in that kind of household but came to the conclusion that it was all bullshit because of all the hollowness and hypocrisy.
Meanwhile, there are others, people for whom "God called him home" is not an acceptable answer to why someone had to die, or for whom "It wasn't in God's plan" just doesn't fly when on the verge of losing a home, a job, a marriage, or worse. Phrases like these are an insult and an affront to those truly suffering, yet it seems that this is all christians have to offer at times. Small wonder people are disgusted by it.
Hrm. I'm rambling. Or regurgitating. I'll stop here.
d, I don't know much if anything about you so I don't want to assume anything. Are you suggesting that people who honestly believe in Christianity have not been subjected to any horrific and true suffering?
Not trying to change the conversation just very curious about your point of view regarding the question.
be loved you are
Steve,
I have always told you that you are doing something great here. You're raising awareness about the problems that plague the church in this country. Because I was listening to the podcast, reading and participating in this blog I got a great education on what is wrong with mega-churches in this country. By gaining this new information I concluded that the church I was previously attending was in fact a mini-mega, non-denom, half caff with whipped cream on top type church.
But that was not the reason I left, I saw the church go straight to Hell when the senior pastor left, it lacked direction. But when I left that church, I didn't take the route of leaving the church altogether. I went in search of another church that would be more true to the Bible and the teachings of Christ. I'm now an LCMS Lutheran and loving every minute of it. So instead of your site driving me away from Christ it actually just drove me out of a bad church and into a really great one. Thanks for giving me that little kick in the ass I needed to get out of the corporate church and into one that is interested in furthering the Kingdom of God.
I think Steve is contibuting to something that is more valuable than any "Christians" can realize. You will probably not see the true weight of how much a site like this helps, until you have been questioning christianity heavily at its foundations. I am a recently deconverted agnostic, and I have felt so much pressure from Christians to "figure things out quick and get right back into the fold--even if you dont really feel like you know why you believe..." but a site like this helps people like me (there are a lot) who are trying to get back to faith, but need a comfortable and encouraging place to be in the meantime.
I've said this before, but as Christians, we SHOULD be open to criticism and intellectual challenge--otherwise you are just BLINDLY following something and that seems to undermine the reason that God may have invented "free will" in the first place.
but that is just my opinion. thanks again!
Hee, in retrospect I sound kinda pompous; remind me not to post under the influence of Nyquil. But anyway...
There is a danger, in these sorts of arguments, to overgeneralize. After all, there are Christians who find strength in their faith; it is what carries them through difficult times. For them, the "footprints" story suffices. The problems arise, methinks, when these Christians think what's good enough for them is good enough for everyone, giving rise to the canned answers and blank stares.
It seems to me (this is my impression; I'm open to being wrong) that the sort of individual that "gets" SCP has usually grown up in the church culture, perhaps been deeply involved and thoroughly indoctrinated by it. However, for reasons ranging from church politics to major incidents to mere anomie, they discover that the social and intellectual support offered by the culture is lacking. Doubts are met with blank stares. Concerns are met with canned answers. "I'll pray for you" is no longer good enough. So, they get out. And, sometimes, they end up here.
...but then, I'm open to being completely off.
I get it and I think your right in many ways. One thing IMHO SCP offers is a place where people who have not had there needs meant can come without fear of being cast out and voice themselves.
It is something I don't understand that well cause I prefer being cast out most often. However my concern is and I think Steve knows this is when all the bitching is done then what?
I don't think it is about church I think it is about us. It is not hard to say to anyone on a ledge about to jump "I'll pray for you"
It is much more to say "even if it means I fall off the ledge with you I am coming to get you and I will stay until I am sure your safe"
Many in Church or not, Pastors or not are not willing to do that and that is the issue. We as a collective don't want to get our hands dirty and don't want to be implicated in messy things.
We are all guilty. We are not all apathetic and you did not imply that just saying. Growing up in Church can leave a bad habit of being very aware of how one is viewed and that is a killer when it comes to really helping other people. It works the same way with someone needing help often they don't ask because of how they will be viewed and when they finally get up the courage to do so we say the canned "I"ll pray for you": as they have just spilt there whole yucky mess in front of us. It is offensive.
Thanks for expanding d, you are loved
I wonder if the canned phrase "I'll pray for you" has any meaning whatsoever. I think it has become a phrase of comfort that is not followed by any action. I don't mean this as a slam against Christians, but I mean that I hear this one uttered so often in times of despair I wonder does anyone really follow this up with action? Another phrase that falls into this category are "you are in my thoughts" and "I will keep you in my prayers". I hear variations of this on the news all the time, but I don't really believe that the news anchors when they go home at night really fall to their knees and pray for anybody. Maybe I'm just cynical in this regard.
Well considering we all make mistakes you don't have to wonder. How many times has someone seen you after they said they would pray and said "dang I forgot sorry I'll try to do better"
Or a anchor say the next broadcast "I suck I said I would pray, or keep in thought or whatever and my car broke on the way home and last night sucked and I forgot"
I would say a fair amount sadly. It is not cynical I don't think.
I am about as hopeful and positive as one can get but I can be real also.
We are only in charge of our own behavior so if I say I am going to pray I better, don't want to sink any ships. :)
Be loved
zech, I apologetically offer to pray for people. I mean it, but it always sounds so damn trite.
I'll pray for you reminds me of the passage in James 2 where he says "be well".
Mrs. Zeke,
One thing I have done when I say I'm going to pray for someone or I read a prayer request, is to pray right there. Granted I can't fall on my knees while I'm driving, the cop would never believe my story, but I find I can usually pray silently to God while doing other things. And no you don't want to be sinking ships, that's for sure. :-)
You're crazy. so there.
"However my concern is and I think Steve knows this is when all the bitching is done then what?"
That has, at times, been a source of tension for me, too. But the truth of it is, Steve doesn't owe anyone here a direction forward. Each one has to figure it out for him/herself, and there's no time limit. Just because I've moved on (or think I have) doesn't give me the right to expect anyone else to have figured things out.
Steve and Josh did me a great service by being just who they are at a critical time. I owe them a lot for that. If some people don't get that, well, it's on them.
I guess what all of this boils down to, is balance. And I think it is no secret that SCP has overwhelmingly tipped the scales towards negativity and cynicism.
Look, as am writing this I'm listening to you guys rag on Steve's own sermon. I think in part that that's totally funny. Josh knows, from our short adventurous times we shared in the same 'profession' (and I use that term loosely...), that I am the King of making fun of people and thriving off of others suffering and embarrassment...but that doesn't make it right or noble. I am actively working on balancing that area, and all I'm saying is that it would be nice to see a little bit more of that balance coming from SCP...that's all.
Steve – can I just say this…you have an amazing “pastor voice”, you had me at “I’m honored to be here.” And mean that in a total hetero-manly-Christ-centered way!
The first one is they "get it"... and they may stick around and read, respond, get involved, form an opinion and then go back into their previously scheduled lives. The second reaction is this... they don't get it or they don't like it.
I guess I'm one of the "haterz." Listen, Steve, I don't "hate" you and I "get" your site, I just think you and your site are a legend in your own minds. That's all. (sorry)
listen steve I'm not trying to offend you. I just think you're still being a retarded preacher. The same preacher you were when you were all excited about acoustic guitars playing while you were preaching your silly PUBLIC self-absorbed prayers. Gimme a friggin' break. I think you had a better shot at being No. 1 when acoustic guitars were playing in the background. Perhaps you should get some DC Talk or even better, Dave-Matthews esque new wave christian music to play as we enter your site. Then my ears will perk up and I will sell my soul to your NEW and true purpose.
Idiot.
I don't understand.
Then why do you keep coming around?
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Its kinda like pringles - once you pop, you just can't stop...
An addicting little salty chip, you took the lid off and got a taste, not entirely plesant of a flavor,no nutritional value, no substance, but its wierdly addicting.
Ohh yeah or like an altoids, a curiously strong mint???
It supposed to have a strong message, its aweful, but you keep opening up the can and taking another...
Or like a bad stink - yeah even though its sooo bad, you can't help but inhaling time after time.
Its wierd human nature - huh
WOW---nugget = hate (alot of it).
I love it when someone prefaces their comment with: "I'm not trying to offend you..." and then proceeds to take a huge dookie on the recepient. that's my favorite display of Christian love.
...balance: more love, less hate (at least in the SCP-aphere)
well, there you have it.
lowendaction, I too wondered about the nugget's responses.
Burning Steve in xtian love.
from shefrog's profile:
I believe that we are all responsible to reach out to people around us and make a difference in this one and only life we live. I believe the Gospel must be preached to make any impact. I believe when the gospel is preached miracles are produced, and lives are changed! I am so glad I know this and live this. I also believe that everyone should belly laugh at least once a day!
way to preach the gospel here. keep on vomiting that love.
I am so glad that you took the time to visit my site Duffelhead. I can only hope that it inspires you each time you do.
Your welcome to comment even - and you can do it non-annonymously if you want to :O).
you inspire me to not be like you. i'm sure it's mutual.
Hypocrites...you can't live with 'em, and you can't leave your Pringles out around 'em.
For the record, one whiff of bad stink is enough for me. I don't stick around for more.
that was probably meaner and uglier than the way it sounded in my head.
i'm sorry.
Insulting someone without backing it up makes people looks silly! No wonder we're reduced to line-by-line rebuttals...
...meanwhile, talks of balance are what I think SCP is ultimately aiming for. Only trouble is, those who "get" SCP have so much stuff on one side that they need the cynicism and sarcasm to reorient themselves. It's like Jungian entropy: a buildup on one extreme could lead to an equally weighted reaction in the opposite. We're just fortunate that Steve's doing something constructive like SCP instead of, say, crystal meth with a male prostitute (too soon? sincerest apologies).
Hrmph. Anyway, anyone else think this is a cultural issue rather than a theological one? Or, what ratio are we talking here?
Personally I think its a people issue. People being to lazy to actually DO something about the problems they see as opposed to just talking about the issues.
We can all bantor about how things should change, and what is wrong all day long. We can be extremly whitty in our words, but what good is it if noone actually puts actions to the words? So is it theological or cultural - you decide.
Talk is cheap. It begins to sound like Charlie Browns mother after awhile- wa,wa,wa,wa,wa,wa,wa,wa.
I think the problem begins when we lose track of the reasoning behind our beliefs. Are we really trying to accomplish the Goals Jesus gave us? Thats a personal question only you can answer.
lets not kid ourselves into thinking that hiding in the blogosphere that is offered here, is changing the course of history and all the bad things going on in the church today. If we all come here and don't do a thing to change things, then I feel like all this effort is lost. I feel like the people that come here are for the most part sincere people, who are upset at the way things are going. Thats great! We should be!
At what point do we accept responsibility to make the necessary changes. If someone doesnt take the bull by the horns then we will sit here year after year, and talk about the same stuff.
I come here to read, and see what people think. I come here to ruffel the feathers of folks for my own amusement, because at times its so easy. I come here to see what new and on the minds of people that seemingly care about the future of the church as we know it.
But most of the time I leave knowing that for all the passion that is spewed, all the frustration shared, sadly nothing will change.
So thats my 2 cents worth.
I have a belly button.
I can't believe I'm letting myself get dragged into this...
::deep breath::
...who said anything about changing history on a grand scale? Steve has already mentioned that the feedback is garnering a positive response. Even one person impacting the lives of a handful of people seems worthwhile, does it not?
...as an aside, it seems like people who "get" SCP don't so much hide here as take refuge. They express the opinions that would get them ostracized elsewhere, vent about things that the places they came from could not fathom. It seems that, for them, SCP is a place for the disillusioned to come to terms with what they've believed, been taught to believe, or grown up with. And from that, they can decide where to go. Some may suck it up and jump back in. Others may settle for the fellowship they find here. Or maybe they'll just become agnostic or atheist, disgusted with he notion of religion in general.
...I think the church SCPers take refuge from might be too massive for them to change. Implementing the changes suggested here would be like getting Wal-Mart employees to unionize. Extrapolate the metaphor as you see fit.
Meanwhile, I'm curious: how does harassing a community who's methods you don't agree with(something you openly admit to enjoying, because you find it so easy) accomplish the goals Jesus gave you? This lack of consistency is less than inspiring.
A quick piggyback on D's comment:
Shefrog, you seem very certain that bitching on SCP is the extent of everyone's activity. I don't think you're thinking this all the way through, but let's suppose you're correct. What action, exactly, are you suggesting folks take?
If Luther was alive today he would blog instead of nailing theses to wooden doors.
He might even have registered for the domain of SPC - Stupid Catholic People.
yea I admit I still don't "get" it. I like how SCP is comprised of people who "get" it and of people who don't.
I like how I am a "hater" now. There are no solutions on this site. You guys are legends in your own minds and masterbate to this silly rhetoric of yours like it's new. There is no galvanization of anything worthwhile here. If Steve wants to open up Pandora's box then he's got to deal with the inevitable stream of dissention . I agree that lots of people in church are stupid, I just don't deify the idea and play head honcho on a website about it. Legends in your own minds. I can tell you all want a "revolution" to start here or something. Quit trying to make yourselves feel special. If some of you weren't so insecure, you'd realize that perhaps God does have alot of shit under control. You're just being weak pansies and have developed superiority complexes because you recognize "problems." Yes I have a superiority complex too. I'm a son-of-a-bitch. At least I know that.
I don't pay lip service to humility e.g. "I'm a sinner too, buuuut," , "no one's perfect, buuuut," , there's always a catch to you self-important bastards that want control outside of your families. Always a catch. I'll never trust your type. Your type tells me to relax and trust YOUR words and interpretation of things. Just more versions of monopoly and a chess match of arrogance if you ask me. Honesty takes a backseat and back-patting is front and center. A group is formed and the exclusions begin. There is a collective idea centered on something NOT biblical and anyone who disagrees is a smelly fart that needs to make a quick exit. Don't argue with me about this. talking about this subject is as effortless for me as taking a nap.
how does harassing a community who's methods you don't agree with(something you openly admit to enjoying, because you find it so easy) accomplish the goals Jesus gave you? This lack of consistency is less than inspiring.
who said anything about Jesus giving me goals? who said anything about me wanting to inspire you? I don't give a crap about you being inspired. I want you to listen to what I say. That's it. I don't want to seem like a washed up ivory tower of Jesus to you. You think what you will about Jesus and confirm in your mind that I'm not like him if that makes you feel better. I couldn't care what you think. I care about truth. I'll talk about what I think the truth is and you will listen. If in 5 years I come back to this site (God forbid) and realize how stupid I was then so be it. I'll beg for forgiveness and ask God to ignore how much of a dumbass I always am.
Hey you know what lack of consistancy is uninspiring to me??? The fact that a bunch of dumb ex-church members go online to talk about dumb church members. I'm not pretending to have a solution or anything nice to say. I am here to tell you that you guys get on my nerves. It's a unique opportunity because in 3d world you can't approach groups and win. You get tossed away and swallowed up. You get lectured and the powers that be wag their fingers because a hierarchy has been breached. And, it would be rude to say these things audibly. hahaha. peace.
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why can't i remove my posts above?
even though I stand by what I say, I don't have the energy to fight you all off. I'd like to delete them.
eh? it's like a wall of insanity. Tea pots and kettles everywhere. I wasn't even responding to nugget...
...I skimmed it, and it's nothing worth responding to. Just ignore him, and move on with the conversation.
and to think, all that typing for nothing. What a waste of space.
Don't feed the trolls.
Nugget (not shefrog),
I understand that you don't like what happens here, but you still didn't answer my question:
"Then why do you keep coming around?"
If I visit a site that I think is just vacuous bullshit, I don't visit again. I certainly don't waste my time trying to fix them. I don't understand your obsession.
Nugget said: I'm not pretending to have a solution or anything nice to say. I am here to tell you that you guys get on my nerves.
Isn't that what SCP is doing as well? They say that what bothers people in others is often a reflection of their own negative character traits. So why try to demonise people who are only doing the same to the church as you have admitted doing to them?
Personally, I find SCP is a good antidote to some of the crap I have to put up with at church. Far from making me leave it, it's given me a bit of welcome relief and helped me to put up with staying in the church.
Steve and Josh might not like the word, but this "ministry" of theirs has certainly helped me as a disillusioned church member.
yes steve, you are above hat!! haha! thanks for the new podcasts friend.
i show the SCP podcast and blogs to so many people who respond with such relief that there are others that feel the same way that they do.
keep well!
Graham
London
ps. i think i'm gonna start listening to the podcats drunk! beer just makes every thing so much clearer!!
Church People...can't live with 'em...pass the beer nuts.
Steve,
So, you know me and I'd tell you if I thought you were fuckin' crazy and way off target.
That said, I think you rock.
Everybody who disagrees can fuck off.
Love,
Brandon
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