Purpose Driven Bullshit
I have never read Rick Warren's Purpose Driven Life book... nor will I. So call me closeminded. But this statement is bullshit. It doesn't even make logical sense.
If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God.
So to all of you questioning God or doubting God.... Go ahead and blow your fuckin' brains out. It just doesn't seem to matter.
If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God.
So to all of you questioning God or doubting God.... Go ahead and blow your fuckin' brains out. It just doesn't seem to matter.
posted by Steve at
1/30/2007
85 Comments:
You should read the book.
No thank you.
Well Steve, what's your answer? If there is no God, why is all of this here? Why are humans here, the animals, any of it? What purpose does existence serve? And to avoid any legal backlash, you never want to put a statement out there telling people to "blow their brains out".
:-)
Not unlike our previous discussion, this one revolves around the focus of our lives. Steve's point seems to be that Christians continually push a system where God is the be all end all (when done properly, this isn't bad, but it's rarely done properly). However, most people don't know God or about God and this positions just sounds arrogant and close minded. I completely agree that for the most part modern Christianity is deplorable in this respect.
The sad part is that most people find deep meaning in life by establishing relationships, serving others, and enjoying this planet. Now, this deep meaning may include serial monogamy, helping the homeless, or searching for oil in ANWR. To them, their meaning isn't good or bad, is just meaning, purpose, a thing to do...They focus on themselves even if this includes serving others to feel good.
Now the real hypocrisy comes out when people in the church see this and they say that the unchurched are worshiping themselves or things or Satan or whatever. The "believers" then go on to pray that God will give them prosperity, heal them, destroy their enemies, etc. The differences between these two exercises in selfishness are very few. In fact, I would say that one group is being honest while the other isn’t. You tell me, who is fooling themselves?
Steve, perhaps it's due to how my mind has been conditioned for 40+ years, but as much as I think the whole "Purpose-Driven" thing is sleazy and a money grab, I have to agree with that statement.
A year ago, I spent two lovely weeks in a psych ward. The death of my dad three months prior was the straw that broke my back as far as my doubts concerning God. I was done. I can recall sitting in a theater watching "The Chronicles of Narnia" and I began thinking to myself "what if this is nothing more than a child's fable?" Five days later, I was in the nut house because I wanted to commit suicide by cop.
I recall awakening one morning while in the hospital because I had to get a blood draw and I remember telling the nurse "atheism nearly killed me". That was the point where I started coming back.
So I guess I'm one of those that nearly did blow my brains out because nothing mattered when God was gone. Who knows...maybe there's a "God" part of the brain that evolved to give humans hope during desperate times, and the reality is that there is no spiritual world...no God, no demons to rebuke, no Heaven to anticipate or Hell to fear. All I can say is that I think Warren is...gasp, choke...right.
I have read the book, and while I can't even remember much of what it was about I can remember that it spawned some valuable reflection for me at the time. Who knows how I would look upon it if I read it now.
But I appreciate your sentiment, Steve. Doctrine aside, it's foolish to imply that non-believers' lives are filled with empty meaninglessness, with hollow desperation. Ghandi had a purpose, for one.
But I suspect too that you may be missing the real point Warren's trying to make. Maybe you should read the book?
Zeke... love ya man....
But no. I'll pass.
We need to do dinner with you and Ms. Zeke... miss you guys.
I've met atheists who find tremendous meaning in life. Some of them are more kind and loving than some Christians. I don't think it is God alone that gives meaning to life, but God's mission to love God and neighbour that provides purpose.
kgp
I believe anyone can find meaning in life, but I think one of the great questions of our time or of any time is: 'what drives us to search for meaning or purpose, in the first place?'
I think Steve is wrong to condemn Warren's book as bullshit without reading it first. I think that perhaps Steve is upset that this one book turned out to be a gold mine for Warren, and the over-marketing of everything else that became "purpose"-related, (journals, devotional books, bible covers, calendars, etc.) drove him away from what could be a very good message in the book. I do own the book but have not read it yet. I don't know where it is. But I can't come right out and trash the book because I have no idea what it really says. I don't know why people need this book or why people consider Rick Warren to have more authority than God when it comes to what our purpose is. Hasn't this issue already been laid to rest in the Bible?
Did I condemn the entire book Zec?? Geesh!
I condemned the statement which is a quote from the first chapter of the book.
Further, let me clarify. I did read the first seven chapters of the book which can be found on the PDL website. I read enough for my taste (it's really nothing new from Warren) and wanted to take a strike at the first "point" of the book... which is foundational to all of the rest. I still think the point is bullshit for many of the reasons listed here by others. But I will respond to your earlier questions later.
Second... Zec... DO NOT presume you know why or why not I am upset about something! ESP is not a spiritual gift.
And finally... I don't really need to read the entire book. Rick Warren has been preaching this same message since the late eighties... he just repackaged all of his messages, illustrations, etc into a book for the masses. I worked with the guy for 4 years, went to the church for about a couple of more so it's not like I haven't heard about 300 sermons or so of Rick's. And let me tell you, I hadn't been back in about five or so years, but recently went there two or three times... and I can say that his messages are the same... nothing has changed. I am not saying that this is bad, because many people are comforted by it... that's cool for them. But as a matter of fact, the last time I went, I heard a recycled message from the early nineties just with new illiteration... and some updated stories. He was even hip enough to quote the "Back Street Boys"... now that's cutting edge.
Steve, you start off by saying you have never read "The Purpose Driven Life" and that you never would. Both Dorsey and Zeke suggested that you read it, you flatly told them, no you had not interest in reading his book. We now find out that your initial statement is nothing but a lie, because you have read some of it. Perhaps not all of it, but certainly more than you let on in your initial statement. You've read the first seven chapters. So why are you lying to us?
I'm not presuming to know why you're upset, I'm speculating as to a possible reason. But it's clear you've got a bug up your ass about this whole thing and I don't know why. Also, I don't really care.
Geesh Zec....
I didn't LIE... but you can call it what you want. However it doesn't change anything actually. Obviously I read something of the PDL based on my initial statment or I wouldn't have been able to quote from the book.
And for someone that doesn't care then why 3 comments in the last five hours? I know you care.... and that's one of the things I deeply like about you. I dig you Zec... and I can appreciate and I value your input.
I do HATE the statement in the book because it is hugely presumptious that only a person that believes in God (and not just any God, but Warren's American Evangelical God) can have a purpose for their life. He is taking a vague swipe at every person in the world that has a different worldview than himself. You know, if pressed, Warren would say that it is HIS GOD... not the Muslim God, or the Jewish God or the Mormon God that gives a person purpose and meaning. Also, anyone who doubts or questions HIS GOD has no purpose.
And as Zeke pointed out, to say that someone like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or EddieF (an atheist) from Edge of Faith doesn't have a purpose is just myopic and ludicrous. It makes no LOGICAL sense. It is supremely one-sided. He of course is entitled to his viewpoint, but I think it is wrong. You are entitled to agree with him as much as I am entitled to disagree. And we are both allowed to agree to disagree and be cool with that... I certainly am.
Bruce... My friend Bruce....
I know what you went through last year and we emailed back and forth about it... and I told you then and I will tell you now. I am so fuckin glad you are here!!
I am glad you found hope to not end your life. For me, that's what truly matters.
as a pastor i resist what it teaches with all that is within me. you don't have to touch it or taste it or see it before you call it bullshit. you can smell it long before it's in view!
"I didn't LIE... but you can call it what you want."
You said you had never read his book. That's an absolute statement. I find out later that you in fact, have read a good portion of his book. You said' you'd never do something, and you did the very thing you said you'd never do. That's a lie. Or if that's too much of an absolute statement, you misrepresented the truth.
"However it doesn't change anything actually. Obviously I read something of the PDL based on my initial statment or I wouldn't have been able to quote from the book."
You could have read that first line in a little pocket-sized book, also put out by Warren called "Why on Earth Am I Here?" you can pick them up at Wal-Mart for a buck, or if you didn't read it there another place you could have seen the first line is any number of book selling websites like Barnes and Noble or Amazon. But we'll address your statement about the first line. I asked you three questions about why you think we're here if Warren's statement is bs, as you claim it is. I think his statement makes perfect sense, because it is based upon a statement in Genesis, "In the beginning God..." What other explanation is there than random chance? I attribute things like the Big Bang theory, evolution, natural selection etc. to be in the category of random chance. So again, what other options are there? What makes sense to you?
"And for someone that doesn't care then why 3 comments in the last five hours?"
I like good conversation and at times a lively debate. :-)
"I know you care.... and that's one of the things I deeply like about you. I dig you Zec... and I can appreciate and I value your input."
Aww thanks, you're a pretty cool guy too.
"I do HATE the statement in the book because it is hugely presumptious that only a person that believes in God (and not just any God, but Warren's American Evangelical God) can have a purpose for their life."
Okay, if you don't believe in Warren's Evangelical American God, I personally believe in the God of the Bible, whom is affiliated with no nation other than Israel as far as I can tell. Where does the desire for our lives to have meaning come from then? The desire for purpose can be seen across the cultures and throughout the world. Like you said, atheists, agnostics and all people have a desire for their lives to be meaningful, why is that? It's probably a question better suited to the realm of psychology but it is an interesting question nonetheless.
"He is taking a vague swipe at every person in the world that has a different worldview than himself."
True. But so is anybody that makes an absolute statement about anything.
"You know, if pressed, Warren would say that it is HIS GOD... not the Muslim God, or the Jewish God or the Mormon God that gives a person purpose and meaning. Also, anyone who doubts or questions HIS GOD has no purpose."
Probably, but that's most likely due to the fact that Warren has a standard in his life for what he considers to be true, the Bible. Now he's probably basing most of his worldview upon his interpretation of the scriptures, but don't most Christians do that as well along with adherents of other faith systems?
"And as Zeke pointed out, to say that someone like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or EddieF (an atheist) from Edge of Faith doesn't have a purpose is just myopic and ludicrous."
Oh they have a purpose alright, I don't know what it is for each one of them as I don't know any of them personally. I think Warren just be saying that their purpose does not line up with what the scriptures say their purpose should be. But what I find fascinating about this whole thing is why people give so much more significance to what Rick Warren says in one book than they give to what God says in His books.
"It makes no LOGICAL sense."
It does make sense if you understand Rick Warren's worldview. God created the Heavens and the Earth and all that lives upon it. Since He created everything, He alone knows why those things were created. Only by reading God's written word can we hope to figure out our purpose for being here. I think that's what he was really trying to do with the Purpose Driven Life, break down the Bible to key passages that reveal God's purpose for us. I find it arrogant of Warren to say that he alone has it all figured out but hey that's his perogative I guess.
"It is supremely one-sided. He of course is entitled to his viewpoint, but I think it is wrong."
That's fine. You have every right to that view, especially since this is your blog. LOL
"You are entitled to agree with him as much as I am entitled to disagree."
Yep. I haven't read any of the book so I can't say one way or the other. I have read quite a bit of the Bible and I do agree with everything in there.
"And we are both allowed to agree to disagree and be cool with that... I certainly am"
Me too. :-)
Hey Steve,
Sorry about the drama man...I just wanted to say my piece. I also know that not everyone needs that to have a fulfilling life. A great friend of mine is an agnostic and his reason for being is to cheer people up and gently "stick it to the Man".
My point is that I bet if there is no God, most humans would require one.
Again, sorry about the drama. And I too am fucking glad to be here!
haha wow you crack me up
Glad you don't care Zec... it's glaringly obvious by your very succint most recent comment. ;-)
Gotta love it!
BRUCE... no drama man. Honest and real. Dig it.
HANNAH... glad I make someone laugh. I thought my original post was more funny than angry. Actually in my head that's how I meant it.
WILLIS... yes the services have lended themselves to major self-promotion. As well as the last time I attended he reiterated over and over his great sacrifice, how he is no longer paid by the church. How he gave X amount back to the church... ugh.
"Without God there is no purpose."
I don't get it ... what's the problem? Isn't that an axiom of the Christian faith ... that we were created by God for His purposes. Anything other than that is a purpose but not THE purpose. Again, Warren isn't saying anything new. Go read the Westminster Confession to see what some ancient Christians thought the whole purpose of our existence was. Or for something even more ancient read Solomons conclusion to all the "meaningless" stuff he spouts off about in Ecclesiastes (ch 12v11).
Hang around with brand new Christians (always some of the best people to be around IMHO) and they often comment on how they feel their life now seems to have new meaning/purpose/a point etc. I'm sure many would have said their lives had a purpose before, but when they get that "let their be light" experience everything else just seems so purposeless.
A lot of the BS you spout is indestiguishable from secular humanism BS. Just what do you believe? Does it have any orthodox Christian doctrine to it at all?
Interesting... calling what I spout BS. Guess we can go round and round on that one can't we.
"My stuff isn't BS, but yours is"!!
And what I believe is really irrelevant anyway, isn't it?. Zec has already said he doesn't care. Warren says if I don't believe just like him I have no purpose. And you, Sheildsy, say what you have read is BS.
You have already made your judgements it appears.
I agree that this statement is “iffy” to say the least and I am not really a big fan of any book with numbers in the title or that disguises self-help as Christianity (or the other way around), but I did read this statement on Wikipedia not that long ago and thought it might influence your view of Rick a bit (though I am still not a fan).
"Rick and Kay Warren have donated 90% of their income through three foundations: Acts of Mercy, which serves those infected and affected by AIDS, Equipping the Church, which trains church leaders in developing countries, and The Global P.E.A.C.E. Fund, which fights poverty, disease, and illiteracy"
I was in B&N yesterday, and saw a book called "The Reason Driven Life." Same cover design and everything. I nearly shat myself laughing, reading the jacket. It's unabashedly a secular humanist response to Warren's shallow feel-good blather.
I have read Warren's. Please don't waste your time. I wish I could get those hours of my life back.
Okay, Steve ya got me. I DO care. Are ya happy now, ya horses patoot? ;-)
steve - I hear you doing a whole lot of side steppin, fingerpointing, and redirecting, but at what point are you nothing more than a hypocritcal self pittying jealous hate-monger?
I really hate to resort to name calling... but I do believe the title of your blog kinda started it. What kind of man calls the bullshit flag on anothers beliefs, without first establishing his own?
Oh, and by the way...how, and based on what biblical facts, do Ghandi, and the gang of other non-Christ based gods you mentioned, stack up to the Judeo-Christian God of whom Rick Warren speaks? Plus, Rick doesn't own God, nor has he ever claimed to do so. What he does, is clearly state the God he follows. It's not that no one else matters, it's that God (Christ) made it very clear and simple: follow Him (that's God, not Rick!) period. Everything else is meaningless and yes...purposeless. Not being omnicient, I do not know how and why there are those who seem to make great impacts on our world, and yet they never proffess Christ as their Lord, and are then (by logic, not by judgement) now in (or on their way to) hell.
I think in the end, you're using SCP as a cowardly shield to spout your anger and discontent, without ever having to actually stand up for your beliefs (if in fact you even have any).
I am not judging, but when you don't provide us with your base, then how else are we to interpret your spoutings?
There are some days when I really feel like you could actually be a positively contributing force to the church family, but other days...
We have so much fuckedupness in our churches today, why then would you persist on tearing away at it, instead of finding new ways of building it up?
See the true face of our enemy:
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/friends_of_god/synopsis.html
and just out on DVD:
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/
I am far from some kind of shining Christian beacon, but I am trying to do my part (small as it may be) to re-build and streangthen the body of Christ. Everything else is pointless and has no eternal purpose.
"steve - I hear you doing a whole lot of side steppin, fingerpointing, and redirecting, but at what point are you nothing more than a hypocritcal self pittying jealous hate-monger?"
Ouch, that was a bit harsh.
"I really hate to resort to name calling..."
Really? Your actions say otherwise.
"but I do believe the title of your blog kinda started it. What kind of man calls the bullshit flag on anothers beliefs, without first establishing his own?"
Beliefs are a funny thing. For some people they are always the same, for others they are always changing.
"Oh, and by the way...how, and based on what biblical facts, do Ghandi, and the gang of other non-Christ based gods you mentioned, stack up to the Judeo-Christian God of whom Rick Warren speaks?"
I didn't realize Steve considered Ghandi a god. I certainly didn't get that from his post.
"Not being omnicient, I do not know how and why there are those who seem to make great impacts on our world, and yet they never proffess Christ as their Lord,"
Really? You seem to know everything else.
"and are then (by logic, not by judgement) now in (or on their way to) hell."
Actually, it's by the Bible that you know this, as it is clearly written there.
"I think in the end, you're using SCP as a cowardly shield to spout your anger and discontent, without ever having to actually stand up for your beliefs (if in fact you even have any)."
But you are using SCP for the same reason, to spout your anger and discontent. As Steve isn't being directly challenged by anybody on his beliefs, there is no reason for him to state them or to defend them in any way.
"I am not judging,"
Yes you are.
"but when you don't provide us with your base, then how else are we to interpret your spoutings?"
He has said that he spent 20 years in the church and I believe a former youth pastor. That gives me a pretty good idea of what some of his beliefs must be. Just what kind of base beliefs are you looking for?
"There are some days when I really feel like you could actually be a positively contributing force to the church family, but other days..."
From what I understand Steve is not part of any church family, so why should he be compelled to contribute in any way to that family?
"We have so much fuckedupness in our churches today, why then would you persist on tearing away at it, instead of finding new ways of building it up?"
What would be his motivation for doing so? There are problems with the church and he is pointing them out. By doing this he makes other people aware of the problems that are there, so those people can address them, if those problems are present in their local congregation. He makes people aware of what's really going on, he never claimed to have a solution to the problem.
"See the true face of our enemy:
http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/friends_of_god/synopsis.html
and just out on DVD:
http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/"
Is this an example of you not being judgmental and namecalling again? I saw the Friends of God documentary. I don't know how heavily edited it was, but what really saddened me about the whole thing was that those reporters spent all that time with evangelical Christians, and I did not see one single evangelical Christian evangelize to her. What's up with that?
"I am far from some kind of shining Christian beacon, but I am trying to do my part (small as it may be) to re-build and streangthen the body of Christ."
Evidence of that is severely lacking in this post. Exactly what is it you do to strengthen the body of Christ? All you've done here is tear down another brother in Christ. Perhaps it is you who is the hypocrite, not Steve.
"Everything else is pointless and has no eternal purpose."
And what value in eternity does this little tirade of yours serve?
Hasn't this issue (regarding purpose in one's life) already been laid to rest in the Bible?
Yeah, see, I thought it was like that, too. You know, that whole "love God with every fibre of your being" and being "a living sacrifice" sort of thing.
AFAIC, Rick Warren can take his Purpose-Driven Life and shove it up his purpose-driven derriere.
Lowendaction, I have got to say it… You said, “There are some days when I really feel like you [Steve] could actually be a positively contributing force to the church family, but other days...”
Sir, I’m Sorry but it just seems to me that this is an odd thing for you to say considering you posted the same benny hinn “dropp’n bodies for Christ” video just 2 days after Steve did. (By the way that seems like a rather strange move for a charismatic like you.)
Are you really so sure that you are above finger pointing and being hypocritical. Are you as sure of that as your are your own creativity. In truth we are all hypocrites! That is what sin makes every believer.
To Steve, I think I agree with this statement now that I’ve had some time to think about it. The reason – It’s not because I think atheists have no meaning to live or because I think they can’t be good people. It’s a matter of origins.
Would it really be wrong to kill someone if there were no god? I would say no… It seems an odd thing to say but I say it because to say yes seems to suggest that “law” or “right and wrong” pre-exist God. Yes, seems to suggest that not “everything good comes from God”. To say yes, seems to suggest that something else predates as well as rules over God and I just don’t believe that. Without God there is no right and wrong; no life and no meaning.
Because of that I would have to say that ones purpose in life exists because of God. Where I differ is that I don’t find it necessary for all people to know God in order to find meaning that ultimately comes from Him.
honestly if there were no God I would have never gotten married. I would be out trying to have lots of one night stands and occassional healthy relationships with nice girls for reliable sex reasons.
I'd also try to make a good bit of money and I'd start trying to control everyone around me. I'm smart and funny as hell and I could do it.
but alas, I believe in the truth of God, so I don't do any of this for fear, love, and understanding that I don't REALLY want all of that.
weird huh?
Steve, that was a great response ... avoid the whole argument just focus on the BS reference.
We've established that I think most of what you say is BS and you think what Warren is BS.
What'd be more interesting is to hear why you think it's BS & illogical for a Christian minister to explain the ancient and orthodox belief that life is ultimately meaningless without God as our starting point. And just why is it that the testimony of so many people who come to faith in Christ talk about "finding their purpose" (or words to that effect)?
I do wonder if the statement "
If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God." was written by anyone other than Rick Warren whether it would even have made you raise an eyebrow. It's a statement that's so uncontroversial and so unastounding it could have been written by a preacher of just about any major religion ... not just an evangelical Christian. What's more, it's an entirely scripturally accurate statement. But, hey, don't let that get in the way of your prejudices.
Sheildsy... you must be a some kind of mind-reader. You know everything about me don't you. It's amazing that you know exactly what I think about Rick Warren by me having made one statement of disagreement with the man.
Why is it that I disagree with one thing a man writes and you assume that I think the man himself is BS? And Lowend calls me a hate-mongerer because I disagree with one statement. That's ludicrous.
The fact that Rick Warren made this statement has nothing to do with my disagreement of it... but the only reason it does matter is because this statement is his primary point in a book that sold a zillion copies. I disagree with this statement on its face regardless of who says it... it just so happens Warren wrote it.
There are many people in the world that believe what Rick Warren teaches IS secular humanism. Many say that the foundation of what he writes is based in eastern religions and secular psychology. Many think Rick is leading people astray with the way he teaches and what he says on many, many points. There are many, many more well-read and smarter people than me who disagree with Rick and his brand of biblical interpretation. What I personally think about Rick is actually irrelevant, because I am not attacking the man's character or person. I am criticizing what he wrote.
And I already told you and everyone here WHY I think this point is BS... but you obviously cannot or do not read what I write. So for your benefit... here, I will say it again... and I quote:
I do HATE the statement in the book because it is hugely presumptious that only a person that believes in God (and not just any God, but Warren's American Evangelical God) can have a purpose for their life. He is taking a vague swipe at every person in the world that has a different worldview than himself. You know, if pressed, Warren would say that it is HIS GOD... not the Muslim God, or the Jewish God or the Mormon God that gives a person purpose and meaning. Also, anyone who doubts or questions HIS GOD has no purpose.
And as Zeke pointed out, to say that someone like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama or EddieF (an atheist) from Edge of Faith doesn't have a purpose is just myopic and ludicrous. It makes no LOGICAL sense. I believe it begs the question. He of course is entitled to his viewpoint, but I think it is wrong...
So there you have it... It is, in effect, saying... believe like I do, believe in my God or else your life will have no meaning, no purpose and you will be miserable. RW doesn't come out and say it... because it is nicer to keep things vague and general... you sell more books that way. That's why hard core bible-thumper Christians do not necessarily care for his theology.
And Sheildsy, just because something is ancient and orthodox doesn't make it truth. There are many ancient and orthodox truths found in the Bible that we no longer accept or believe in... whether it's do to scientific advances or sociological and cultural changes. There are plenty of scripturally accurate statements that you don't believe... but you explain those away for a multitude of your own reasonings.
Listen, it doesn't surprise me that Rick makes this statement. I just happen to disagree with it. And again... just because I disagree with it doesn't mean I hate the man. I don't.
Steve, you got farther then I did when I was reading it.
I only made it to chapter "day" 5.
Looking back at the time when I picked that book up, I was in a bit of a depression. I had recently moved to a new city where I had very few friends (and they were all co-workers), and my roommate (a former co-worker) was absolutely glowing about the book and how wonderful it was. I think he only made it to day 15.
The book did nothing to help me sort my purpose, I was confused. I had moved because I thought that was my purpose (to work with that particular ministry I had relocated for), and yet I felt unfulfilled. I just felt more and more guilty - questioning myself. Did I make the right decision by moving? Is this my purpose?
If it wasn't my roommates book, I probably would have used it for kindling while making a nice fire. I'm certainly glad I didn't spend any of the peanuts I was earning at the time on it.
DAMNIT!!!!! I just wrote this huge repsonse and it didn't post for some reason!!!! Fuck!!
Well, it gave me the chance to listen to your latest podcast installement...I'm still mourning the braincells that gave their lives in the process...ahhh, good times though. nothin like a little wetback humor eh?
Here's all I wanted to say (hopefully a little more compressed...).
First, I appologize for my earlier comment, which was once again written out of an emotional reaction, and therefore...whatever, I'm not perfect, nor will I ever be!
thanx to ha koen for callin me out though, I really appreciate your honesty.
zec...what can I say? I think it's awefully cute how you bristled up for your hero steve. I gotta be honest with you though, I find you views to be weak and defensive...nuff said.
Yeah steve, I get a little worked up about this subject, because I have grown tired and frustrated at the appearant apathy shown by so-called christians today. If you claim the name of Christ, than stand by it, not behind your fabricated version you've stuffed in a box, or choose to aimlessly waft around you.
I think Christ was pretty clear about those who are lukewarm. That does not mean that we are not allowed to question, but at some point you must establish some kind of base, or else there simply is no relationship. In other words, I believe that this means you have no right to claim the name of Christ, if you have not chosen to accept and believe the basic and foundational terms of the relationship. Call this harsh or extreme or whatever, but you know that it's true. I think that's why our relationship to God is often referred to in the bible as a marriage. What's interresting about that reference however, is how many would argue "well, then what about the courtship and engagement periods?" I think you'll find, that those are never mentioned according to God's perfect plan of marriage. In other words, make the choice, and stick to it. Of course there will be ups and downs, and much conflict, but that should never be grounds for breaking the covenant (just as you wouldn't do so with your wives, right?).
Look, search, ask, scream, curse, do whatever it takes for you to find what YOU consider to be the truth. But don't use the God nametag in the meantime, if you're unwilling to agree to His foundational terms.
I believe that you are actually further from God by "just living your life, and not hurting anyone", than if you were to honestly seek God's character. This isn't hardlined extremism talking, or the currupt church for that matter, but God's word (I'm not claiming to be a conduit for God...just referencing His word).
Why do you allow these 'churchy-types' to influence you? Ignore them, and go straight to the source. And if you find that some of the messages overlap...who cares? I would argue that the greater majority of churchy-types are actually coming from a good and honest place, it's just their delivery that sucks ass.
All that to say...I truely believe that your answers are not going to be in "just living", or "poor me and my little church auchies", or whatever. If you're genuine desire is to find truth and reckoning with God...then you know where to go. All this other bullshit is just that...
"zec...what can I say?"
I think you've said enough, but continue to post your thoughts. They amuse me.
"I think it's awefully cute how you bristled up for your hero steve."
The only person who's bristled around here is you. I just addressed your post line by line and commented on what you said and asked questions where appropriate. If you think that's getting all "bristled up", you don't know me very well. I think it's cute how you think "awfully" is spelled with an extra "e". I stand up for my friends. Steve isn't my hero, he's just and friend and I speak up for my friends when I deem it appropriate to do so. I've done it for others on here in the past.
"I gotta be honest with you though, I find you views to be weak and defensive...nuff said."
Hm, weak and defensive? Wouldn't that be indefenisve? You've made it clear to me that the only way you can express yourself is through racist humor and foul language. When you want to have a discussion like an adult let me know, I'll be here.
Purpose Driven Life is one of my favorite Christian books. It helped me in a time when I lacked spiritual focus.
I'm not qualified to determine if the statement Steve quoted is universally accurate, but I can categorically state that I have found it appropriate for my own life.
I cannot make that determination for anyone else. I don't think anyone can... either way.
well...obviously I've been put in my little time out corner. Looks like I've got some brushing up to do on the ol' english language, and it seems those SCP podcast are definitly not a good influence on that pesky little racist strain of mine.
by the way... ha koen, what did you mean by referring to me as charismatic (i know what the term means), I'm just curious how you came to bestow me with that title? I'm not mad...just curious.
In the meantime, I will be tending to the log in my eye, if zec and the others don't mind.
Cynisism is so very hard to interpret via the written word, isn't it?
Sorry to take up space.
Well, your favorite part of the bible is from Acts 2, and you speak with emotional enthusiasm. You also talk a lot about peoples attempts to “limit God” or “put God in a box” and that is usually something people say to combat intellectual critics in order to get away with limited theology and high emotion (though I think your right and it does actually have some merit). Additionally I think Charismatics sometimes get unfairly attacked (quite often) and so seem to think of themselves as defenders of the “simple truths”. It also seems that you often turn the conversation to speak of spiritual warfare. I may be way out to lunch, but you seem like you grew up in a Pentecostal church or at least a church open to the charismatic. I think you reject the wacky but still think of things in similar terms to J. Rodman Williams or perhaps even “This Present Darkness” or “The Screwtape Letters”.
Like I said, I may be way out to lunch and I didn’t mean to make a wild assumption… it is just my perspective of how I “hear” you through my computer.
Most people hear me as an arrogant jerk. Heh I use Kohen as my name -they’re probably right!
-Later
i dunno Joel Osteen is perty weird too. God wants us to be rich, uh huh. lots o money. Yea GOD LOVES ME THEREFORE I HAVE A CONDO! the end.
i dunno Joel Osteen is perty weird too. God wants us to be rich, uh huh. lots o money. Yea GOD LOVES ME THEREFORE I HAVE A CONDO! the end.
sorry
I don't understand how the statemant doesn't make logical sense. Assuming you believe in the existence of God. Also, the statement is, " there would be no purpose tp your life" not "there would be no reason to keep on living".
I guess what I am saying, Steve, is I don't understand the premise of your argument aka random, pointless ragefest
Marc (and whoever else is still reading)....
Ok... Marc actually struck a chord with me (if you can believe that) and so I am willing to dialogue about this idea since I think it is important.
For me the statement presumes that PURPOSE = GOD.
Not just ANY God, but a specific God. Althought Warren doesn't state it, it presumes the Evangelical God that recognizes Jesus as Savior. So that statement implies that if you don't believe like Warren believes than your life has no purpose.
Also, further than that, it goes on to say it ALL STARTS WITH GOD. So let's just say for example that person A doesn't believe in God, specifically Warren's God. Maybe they are a Muslim, or Mormon, or some other religion.... maybe they are even atheists. Yet A has made specific contributions to the world, is a good, kind, compassionate person. They have children that they love, are good neighbors, etc.
Do none of those things equate purpose? Would it be better at the end of their life, if they don't convert to Christianity that they had never been born? Was there life truly worthless, pointless and meaningless?
It's an unprovable premise from where I sit.
steve - (this is me writing from a calm emotion-free state-I'm not in attack mode!)
two things real quick (yeah right...) First, I'm not quite sure where you get the impression that Rick is somehow "claiming" God, or asking anyone to follow HIS God. Though Rick may have his 'version' or 'interpretation' of what God means to him (and who doesn't have that?), he is fairly consistent about referencing the scripturual God (though he does use "the Message" a bit excessively in my opinion, but whateva). So there's that...
And secondly, I think there should be a distinction made between ones life purpose, and ones eternal purpose. To say that anyone not following Christ has no purpose what so ever, is obviously a ludicrous statement, but I think what Rick was getting at (and I have a sneaking suspicion that he concludes the book with this validation--I too was unable/unwilling to finish his 'masterpiece') was that those not following Christ have a limited or finite purpose in life. Obviously we've seen how many such individuals have affected our world both negatively and positively, but that does not get them any closer to sharing eternity with God...unless...you know the rest.
No question, this is as tuff subject to deal with, just as the gay/lesbian thing is(in my view anyway...not to start a new thing here.), but I do believe that Rick is referencing the biblical God, and with that, his statement is sound.
Hey koen, thanx for the feedback...unfortunatly your were off with the Pentecostal thing, but I appreciate your comments none the less.
Steve:
"For me the statement presumes that PURPOSE = GOD."
I don't even see the word "purpose" in that opening line of Warren's book, so I don't know how you're coming to the conclusion that that statement presumes purpose = God. Is it possible that you're attributing things you've read later in the book about our purpose being tied to God to that opening line?
"Not just ANY God, but a specific God. Althought Warren doesn't state it, it presumes the Evangelical God that recognizes Jesus as Savior."
Is it only the Evangelical God that recognizes Jesus as savior? I thought the God of the Bible recognized Jesus as savior, that's not a strictly Evangelical viewpoint. Also, I don't see how you can say that statement presumes God to be Warren's Evangelical God, when the statement itself doesn't say that.
"So that statement implies that if you don't believe like Warren believes than your life has no purpose."
I disagree. The statement is giving you two options, there may be more options, but the statement is limited to two. Either everything started with God as stated in Genesis 1:1, or everything that has happened to bring creation, and all that is in it, to the point it is at today, is due to random chance.
"Also, further than that, it goes on to say it ALL STARTS WITH GOD."
Do you disagree with that statement? Put aside what Warren may or may not be driving at with his opening statement, do you or do you not agree with Genesis 1:1?
"So let's just say for example that person A doesn't believe in God, specifically Warren's God. Maybe they are a Muslim, or Mormon, or some other religion.... maybe they are even atheists. Yet A has made specific contributions to the world, is a good, kind, compassionate person. They have children that they love, are good neighbors, etc.
Do none of those things equate purpose?"
They may have a purpose, but does the person doing those actions know what that purpose is? Does he know why he does those things or does he/she just do those things, because that's the way things have always been done? I don't think there is a person on the face of this earth who hasn't been told by somebody, somewhere at sometime what their purpose is. Maybe it's just to grow up, have a family, live a nice, life, do good things and then die. That's a purpose to live, to have those things. Maybe our only purpose is to procreate? That's a purpose, too, it may not be the purpose God has laid out for them according to the Bible, but it's a purpose.
"Would it be better at the end of their life, if they don't convert to Christianity that they had never been born?"
That question begs one vital question to be asked, have they heard of Christianity and have they been given the option to be saved from their sin? If not, then their life, depending upon how they lived it, will determine if they have an afterlife. I personally believe, that God will judge those who have not heard of Him or His laws, based upon their actions. If they lived a good life and did good things, they will be rewarded with eternal life. I don't believe God would send someone to Hell, just because they had never heard of Him and apply a standard to them and their lives that the person was never made aware of. That's not just or loving, two things the Bible reveals God to be.
"Was there life truly worthless, pointless and meaningless?"
It depends upon how the question above is answered. What is the point of living, if you just end up going to Hell? It would probably be better in that instance, if you had never been born.
"It's an unprovable premise from where I sit."
This side of Heaven, I agree with you, it is unprovable. We won't know the answer for certain, until we die.
Oops, my bad. Correction: I do see the word purpose in Warren's statement.
"If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God." (RW)
When I read that statement I see an 'if there was no God and everything was a result of random chance...' - presumption could be made he is arguing with ideas behind evolution more than anything else - that life lose it's purpose after we lose sight of God and his creation. Form those humble origins we derive our meaning to life?
But I can see what Steve is saying and what he is trying to get across here - just because someone doesn't hold our faith like we do doesn't mean they can't find a 'purpose' to life, that's a little to close-minded to say. Lots of atheists find grand meaning for living in the now and relating with one another while we live as a 'great purpose' - the ensurance of our survival as a spcies (this derived from evolution). That's a purpose - without God - without Creation - but it does include love for the fellow human being. Which is really what God is asking us to do anyways?
In the end, it's just a book (I also own it but never read it) and that book isn't supposed to be eulogy on the whole existence of life; it's just a purpose driven persepective from the mind of a pastor. Some find encouragement and some find it kooky - but the beauty of life is in the eye of the beholder anyways.
'Can't we all just get along?' Rodney King
Read it
Liked it
Applied it
and passed it on.
Did everything apply?
Not really but not everything I read in the Bible applies...
Ok Steve, did Imiss something? Are Muslims, Mormons, and Atheists correct? I thought, by the way, that are purpose in life was to worship Our Creator.
I don't see anything wrong with be unappologetic for what you believe.
I realize perception is reality. This means that the way you, me, or Rick Warren veiw God is probably a lot different; but it is the same God we are talking about, the same Jesus.
So, therefore, it DOES ALL START WITH GOD.
God is the one who gave us purpose. Whther or not we choose to accept that is irrelevant to the truth of our purpose. I am sure you disagree with me , but if you believe in God as the Author and Finisher of our faith then how can you not see that the Alpha and Omega is were everything begins and ens.
GOD = PURPOSE.
thedavidsoftulsa has nailed it on the head for me.
So to all of you questioning God or doubting God.... Go ahead and blow your fuckin' brains out. It just doesn't seem to matter.
One would have to be a Warren type Christian to “blow out your brains” when you no longer believe in an imaginary friend without whom there is supposedly no purpose for life. {snort} Hahaha – it would be like committing suicide the day you found out that your mother was actually the tooth fairy all along. Yeah, I know it sounds stupid, but alas, these types of theists are like the poor – we will always have them among us.
For the rest of us, who have shed our believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, Zeus, Mithras’s, myth, superstitions and Jesus - we have come to realize that LIFE do have a very definite purpose – thank you!
So, without apology, may the idiot who penned that piece of claptrap do us a favor and “blow his brains out” from the meth his is using to come up with such fucking nonsense. Is that you Ted Haggard?
;-)
eddie F (is that a clever update of Axel-F...I wonder?) you seem to be well established in your adult life, free from all non-tangebles and whatnot's...
Coming from "the other side", what does your life purpose look like? I'm not judging or attempting some holy attack. What you must understand about me, is that my belief system is deeply rooted in my very being, and therefore it is very difficult for me to imagine a life without Christ, and the eternal amazingness He has promised those who choose to love Him.
This idea that our finite time hear on earth is ALL there is to life, is just entirely too depressing for me. What a shallow and purposless existance. Give me just one example of something TRUELY meaningful that your proposed 'dead end' alternative could offer the world? Now before you haul off and start listing some of the "great" contributions in history, such as medicines, technology, Ghandi and so on... If all there is at the enevitable end is death... does any of that REALLY matter?
...again, not attacking, I'd just really love for you to elaborate past your fairytale liberations. thank you.
I think that sentiment is held by people who haven't properly considered what the word "purpose" or "meaning" even means. As for Rick Warren himself, I'm not aware of any purpose-driven evidence that his driving purpose is anything other than massive prophet off Christian pop-culture and youth groups that study his book instead of the Bible. But many people other than him do make this kind of argument.
It seems that what they are really saying is something like, "God provides purpose to my life and can provide the same to yours. If you don't believe in God, you can't have this purpose." But everyone, including Christians, know that life can have any variety of purposes other than God, such as money, family, humanitarianism, etc. God provides the most elevated, pleasurable, or "weighty" purpose - sure. But it's just totally transparent that there are plenty of other purpose-driven people out there who don't seem to be aiming for God. Rick Warren is arguably one of them, but I won't take any stance on that.
You can assign any number of motivations to Rick Warren (I don't pretend to know), but I don't think it's fair to make profit one of them. In addition to giving back the sum of his salaries for the last 25 years, Warren has poured enormous sums of money into Africa to assist with the AIDS epidemic there. I'm guessing it's a larger percentage of his income than any of us here has given.
In fact, this was the topic of my very first blog post ever.
I used to think this site was about people who became dissallusioned with the church "machine" and had a bone to pick with them.
But, it has become surprisingly evident that this site was founded by people who realized that the church they were apart of, is not what they signed up for. The thing with that is you have based yor belief system on the church, not on knowing God.
You see your ideas are so alien to me because I have conversations with God everyday. I know that He is always working with me in every situation. You people talk about God like He is someone you read about in a book somewhere.
Your thought processes may be valid in a classroom where everyone is afraid to qualify theory with their life, but in the real world God in is real and amazing.
You re disallusioned with God! Come to grips with that.You ve got all these second year seminary questions rolling around in your brain, yet you have forgotten that it is not about proving anyone right or wrong it is about having a relationship with the Almighty Creator.
Your bias has become so wildly evident it is now just annoying. You have splashed Eugen Peterson's credentials around as a qualification solely because he wrote a book chastising the modern church, but you overlook Rick Warren credentils, I'm sorry, you even preface to say you haven't even read the book you are bashing, just because he is one of the mega church types that you lothe.
Doyou believe that the bible has any bearing on this? If so read it, and then read to your atheist friends, and I guess all the Mormons and Muslims you know. I gospel is life people. I don't see how telling people who don't have a relationship with Christ that GOD=PURPOSE is a bad thing. The bible says that God's word will not return unto you void.
The bible says a lot of things actually maybe if you read The Message translation that we be ok.
But, it has become surprisingly evident that this site was founded by people who realized that the church they were apart of, is not what they signed up for. The thing with that is you have based yor belief system on the church, not on knowing God.
This kind of presumption--and the doctrinal finger-wagging that followed--is not the best starting place for a conversation. And if my memory serves, you've shut down more than one thread this way. That's pretty lame.
I think it's fair to make as many presumtions about Steve as he is making about Rick Warren or any other evengelical he doesn't like.
Lame? At least am not picking random statements from a book I haven't even read and using that as a pivot point to attack someone.
Oh, by the way, Steve, you are closeminded. Though, I don't need your permission to say so, I will gladly accept the proposal, and as a cherry on top just for you buddy I will tell you what gives me that impression.
People who oppose you are always, at least on this site, treated as enemies.
You don't bring up subject matter that might open a door that leads to conflicting ideas.
You are at the bare least prideful and arrogant, and can only excuse yourself by admitting it.(Just because your can admit your faults doesn't make them ok)
Anyway just a tidbit for you to enjoy.
love always, Marc.
You see your ideas are so alien to me because I have conversations with God everyday. I know that He is always working with me in every situation.
Apparently not on internet etiquette, but I guess that's far down the list after Working Miracles and Rebuking Those in Error.
Steve: if you can't extrapolate what Warren was trying to say in that sentence then I feel sorry for you.
I feel sorry that you've never thought such a basic ESSENTIAL thought that kinda reads, "what's the point if there is no God?"
It's a valid question. It's a question that should be evaluated because of the doubts that frequent others AND ourselves.
Have you thought of it? Have you thought whether or not there is a purpose without God? Is there a purpose if God does not exist???
I'd say no. Not any REAL purpose. You imply that he means "blow your brains out." What he means is that there is no grand scheme of things. This also implies that morality does not exist the way we'd like it to. Morality exists as an invention of man, a warm-over way of saying "laws" or "ethics."
Now I'm no real fan of Rick Warren because I think all preachers are pretty much fucked up arrogant retards. But don't misrepresent what he says to toss in some profundity into your pedestrian rants.
Marc David: I think it's fair to make as many presumtions about Steve as he is making about Rick Warren or any other evengelical he doesn't like.
I find this interesting, since a prominent critique against the institutional church is that it is "agenda-driven".
I wonder if Steve's extrapolation of this Warren statement couldn't be construed (or misconstrued) as "agenda-driven" as well. I think I understand where Steve is coming from, as a "Christian moderate". But does anyone expect Warren to say anything different, as a "Christian conservative"?
The statement "If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God." is a core, foundational principle to the Christian faith. Rick Warren hasn't cornered the market on this theology. Psalms & Proverbs echo this sentiment repeatedly. Therefore, I don't fully understand the negative reaction to the statement, as it seems fairly "par-for-the-course", for Christianity.
Steve, I wonder if your objection to this statement doesn't stem from something far deeper than face-value, since you spent time on staff at Saddleback. Obviously, you have perspective that many of us cannot fully grasp.
I do have one question though. Do you feel that maybe there's a breakdown here between Warren's view of "eternal purpose" versus your examples of "temporal, here-on-earth purpose"? (And should there be a difference?)
:)
eddie F (is that a clever update of Axel-F...I wonder?) you seem to be well established in your adult life, free from all non-tangebles and whatnot's...
Nope, not a clever update, just an acronym for my last name. And yeppers, indeed well established from all the non-tangibles and sppoks. Geez, I nearly shouted “hallelujah” – does that mean I am not all that free from it? Just kidding. But most of all, it’s cool not to worry or live in fear of the whatnot’s.
Coming from "the other side", what does your life purpose look like?
Well, well, well – I always love it when theists ask me that question. But why do you ask it in such a way that should I give you a coy little philosophical one-liner, that all of it will make sense as if by magic? Do you really want to reduce the purpose of life down to one word – god? Honestly man, it’s far richer than that.
Why is it that human beings NEED this answer in order to feel validated, and why is the illusion of such an answer is the meaning of life? Huh? Don’t you understand, the meaning of life is deeply personal to every human being, and I honestly respect the fact that Christ is that answer to you, it just don’t happen to be mine any longer – and look ma, I am still alive, and actually enjoying life more than I ever did.
I'm not judging or attempting some holy attack.
Not to worry, I love holy attacks, and you shouldn’t have to make excuses for wanting to know about life.
:-)
and therefore it is very difficult for me to imagine a life without Christ, and the eternal amazingness He has promised those who choose to love Him.
All I read is “fear” when I read a sentence like that. Fear to actually live. Besides, just what the heck is “eternal amazingness” and how do you know it even exist? Just how friggen amazing is it going to be when half you family is burning in hell forever? Doesn’t sound like bliss to me. And there is a big difference between imagining your life without Christ and actually living it without him.
This idea that our finite time hear on earth is ALL there is to life, is just entirely too depressing for me.
Well, then you should keep on believing, cuz we don’t wanna see you depressed. But let’s assume for a second that this IS actually all there is. Do you honestly want to tell me that you will blow your brains out because it’s too depressing to face such a reality? Geez man, your life (even as a Christian) should be worth more than that. Besides, just how the heck is Jesus giving your life purpose huh?
What a shallow and purposless existance.
Shallow and purposeless according to who? You? Gimme a break! Don’t project your feelings onto those who don’t share your god. At least 4 billion people on this planet don’t look at life from your bubble – so you want to tell me that 4 billion people have no purpose, JUST because they don’t worship your deity? By all means, worship Jesus all you like, but don’t make assumptions about other people’s lives unless you have walked in their shoes.
Give me just one example of something TRUELY meaningful that your proposed 'dead end' alternative could offer the world?
World peace for starters. When last did terrorists blow up buildings in the name of worshipping NO GOD? When last did a bunch of agnostics fight about a freaking piece of land in the Middle East in the name of NO GOD? The ‘dead end’ alternative is waking up and smelling the coffee, and living every moment like there is no tomorrow - instead of folding your hands in prayer waiting for the end and some imaginary deity to come and fix the shit going on in our world in the name of religion.
If all there is at the enevitable end is death... does any of that REALLY matter?
Death is the only thing we ARE certain of – but you don’t know anything about what comes after this life, simply because you don’t have evidence for it. You do this by belief only – like the story we all tell ourselves to get through the day – I just happen to like mine grounded in reality and not fantasy. And YES, it REALLY DOES matter, because we ARE alive today – that’s reason enough for everything to matter. You really are making a false analogy here, as the one isn’t the consequence of the other.
...again, not attacking, I'd just really love for you to elaborate past your fairytale liberations. thank you.
No problem! Cheers!
that conversation was so idiotic I really DO want to blow my own head off now!!!!
world peace??????? hahahahahahahaha.
yea i'm sure if we banned religion everyone would put down their guns and start openmouth kissing.
hahahahaha.
most retarded statement ever
When last did terrorists blow up buildings in the name of worshipping NO GOD? When last did a bunch of agnostics fight about a freaking piece of land in the Middle East in the name of NO GOD?
yea terrorists have never blown up buildings in the name of economics, political agendas, etc. Namely just God. a made up God was the reason. yep. that's it. Kill the idea of Faith = world peace.
hey EDDIE: STICK TO TECHNOLOGY. (YOUR DAY JOB)
Dear nugget
Your ignorance is only surpassed by your stupidity.
It’s a well documented FACT that agnostic/atheistic countries are the most socially progressive and peaceful nations compared to those who are overtly religious. These countries, with the exception where they are ruled by despots/dictators/fascist’s with a political non religious ideology is far more willing to give and come to the aid of their fellow human beings regardless of BELIEF. So, snort and laugh all you like, but you cannot reason away the statistics on that.
Sure, we will never have TOTAL world peace, but at least we won’t have to suffer the violence and cruelty perpetrated by the countries who are dominated by the AXIS OF EVIL – the Abrahamic faiths – namely Judiasm, Islam and Christianity. At least we won’t have to see violence in the name of a stupid plot of land which the Arabs and Jews are fighting for, which “God” supposedly promised to both sides (the real hahaha), and for which fundamentalist Christians egg on the Jews so they can see their said imaginary “savior’s” return on a cloud. Sounds nutty – doesn’t it!
So, stick to your nuggets, because the rest is worthless bullshit. Challenge to you: give me an example where non theists perpetrated a war in the name of NO RELIGION or NO GOD? Go on, give it your best shot! And no, I did not say you cannot believe bullshit, just that believing you need to kill in the name of it, is the REAL problem – even if you contract that killing to you government, as opposed to walking around with a bomb strapped around your waist. Big difference you asshole!
hey eddie...look at you flexing your atheist muscle in a mostly Christian enviorenment. It makes me wonder what drives you to contribute in this arena...is it anger about your former beliefs, or do you just really love getting people worked up...either way, whatever man. That's just the magic of the internet, right?!?
I also would like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments in such detail. I always love hearing from many different perpectives...
I was however currious about that whole "No-God" war thing. Unless I've totally misunderstood your point, you're basically claiming that all wars are religiously motivated? I'm no historian here, but I'm pretty sure I can think of a few rather significant ones that had nothing to with God or any other religion for that matter: WWI and II, the American Civil War, pretty much all of the race-based African slaughters, the expansion of the Roman empire...
So to blame religious zealots for the absence of World peace seems a bit far fetched.
And to answer one of your other questions. I know about the afterlife, because of what I experience now. I'm not going to elaborate on that at this time, because I simply base this on faith and blief, and does not require further proof for me. I know you hear nothing but drone-like fear in such statements, but believe it or not, I've live quite a few of my adult years away from this belief system, and can therefore directly reference "the other" side with confidence.
Christianity was never intended to be force-fed. Unfortunalty far to many people who proffess Christ as their savior are not so great in the P.R. department, and will often project an image of...well lunacy, and that makes it even more difficult for someone like me to share my views and beliefs in the shadow of their spoken idiocracy.
Ultimately, if you can honestly say that you are completely confident in what you believe (or don't), and that fullfills your sense of purpose here on earth...than I say: congratulations. You have succeeded at what most only hope to achieve. Even some firm believing Christians are constantly re-evalutating their belief systems and are filled with doubt (as this blog clearly shows, and I can openly confess of my own life). However, at some point their is a "leap of faith" at which time you establish your base belief. You yourself can not disprove my belief, just as much as you can't prove yours. Sure, there's the scientific this and that, but the "ultimate" questions of life after death and such, will elude us all until we get there. In my book, as long as you are solid with where you stand when that time comes...good on ya mate!!!
zThat is hilarious, I didnt know Steve was formerly staff at Saddleback. Now the pent up aggression makes sense.
Why didn't you just tell us all that to begin with, Steve, that way we could just discount your adolescent hissy from the get go.
That's just to classic, next thing you know, Steve will be sending out ani-Saddleback mini-books to everyone on the mailing list he stole before he was escorted out by security. Seriously, could you be any more sterotypical?
hey eddie...look at you flexing your atheist muscle in a mostly Christian enviorenment. It makes me wonder what drives you to contribute in this arena...is it anger about your former beliefs, or do you just really love getting people worked up...either way, whatever man. That's just the magic of the internet, right?!?
Sorry to say, but YOU brought the debate to me! And NO, I am not an atheist. I am a non theist, although, atheistic my belief in Jesus, Allah and most known gods, and give up trying to figure out my “motives” – you are not equipped to do it. And for the record, I know Steve and many other Christians on this blog, who I respect, irrespective of their beliefs.
I also would like to thank you for taking the time to respond to my comments in such detail. I always love hearing from many different perpectives...
Believe it or not – so do I! I don’t care what you believe, as long as you don’t try to psychoanalyze me!
I was however currious about that whole "No-God" war thing. Unless I've totally misunderstood your point, you're basically claiming that all wars are religiously motivated?
No, I am not claiming that, as I made clear. I merely claimed that the Abrahamic faiths have most to answer for in our current world affairs.
I'm no historian here, but I'm pretty sure I can think of a few rather significant ones that had nothing to with God or any other religion for that matter: WWI and II, the American Civil War, pretty much all of the race-based African slaughters, the expansion of the Roman empire...
Uhm, I DID mention where it was NOT motivated by a non religious political agenda, and sorry to say, but the expansion of the Roman empire can all but be attributed to Christianity – courtesy of Constantine’s “visions.”
So to blame religious zealots for the absence of World peace seems a bit far fetched.
Again, you are missing the point. And no, I don’t attribute the absence of world peace to religion only, just a big portion of it.
And to answer one of your other questions. I know about the afterlife, because of what I experience now. I'm not going to elaborate on that at this time, because I simply base this on faith and blief, and does not require further proof for me.
Yeah well, what else could you say? What proof do you have other than the tales you belief?
I know you hear nothing but drone-like fear in such statements, but believe it or not, I've live quite a few of my adult years away from this belief system, and can therefore directly reference "the other" side with confidence.
DO explain yourself ..
Christianity was never intended to be force-fed.
I beg to differ. Your own LORD set the ultimatum.
Unfortunalty far to many people who proffess Christ as their savior are not so great in the P.R. department, and will often project an image of...well lunacy, and that makes it even more difficult for someone like me to share my views and beliefs in the shadow of their spoken idiocracy.
Shit, now your GOD needs a P.R. department? My biggest gripe against him! Let him come down from his high moral cloud and tell it himself – I dare him!
Ultimately, if you can honestly say that you are completely confident in what you believe (or don't), and that fullfills your sense of purpose here on earth...than I say: congratulations.
Ditto to you! The gods haven’t helped me one iota, so why waste time on them?
You have succeeded at what most only hope to achieve.
Which would be what?
Even some firm believing Christians are constantly re-evalutating their belief systems and are filled with doubt (as this blog clearly shows, and I can openly confess of my own life). However, at some point their is a "leap of faith" at which time you establish your base belief.
Why do we need a “leap of faith” at all? Why doesn’t your God make it plain and clear as he supposedly promised to do? And what “leap of faith” is guiding my life? I don’t profess to know shit about shit when I don’t know shit about it. My life is not based on belief, but only that which I have evidence for.
You yourself can not disprove my belief, just as much as you can't prove yours.
Exactly, but SO WHAT? What does it matter, and how does that make me inferior to you?
Sure, there's the scientific this and that, but the "ultimate" questions of life after death and such, will elude us all until we get there. In my book, as long as you are solid with where you stand when that time comes...good on ya mate!!!
Ditto mate!
you're not missing much. My wife and I read the book as part of a "40 days of purpose" at our church.
With all due respect to Rick Warren, who I'm sure is a great guy, let me give you a brief summary of the book to save you time:
God loves you
He has a special purpose for you
You must pray and try to find that purpose
Now follow this neat and clean 12 step program to knowing that purpose and all sorts of spiritual growth.
Yeah, that's about it. Another "12 steps to God" program.
M
Eddie F., I’ve never seen you here before. You seem to be a bit of an anti-theist or agnostic or something so welcome to this discussion. You will certainly present a different view.
I should say, you have a very interesting “tone” about you. Not unique by any stretch of the imagination… but interesting nonetheless. John Shelby Spong and Tom Harpur would be proud of you!
Although you seem to have completely hijacked this thread I still feel the need to respond to something you said (as others have and will I’m sure). You said, “When last did terrorists blow up a building in the name of NO GOD?” That is an interesting question with tons of answers. Unfortunately for all of us though it comes down to – all the time.
Your assumption is that everything that hides behind a religious group is actually religious in and of itself. This is a clear fallacy. Your augment is based on a foolish assumption. Was religion really the reason behind the crusades? You would be hard-pressed to find a historian to agree with that assumption. Was it Christianity or Sugarcane that caused the slave trade? Money… power… and basically every other form of greed and every conceivable evil reason has been used to insight violence. Often the religions or lack of religions of certain individuals get blamed in the crossfire. But if you look honestly at it (and you believe that people are ultimately responsible for their own actions) then you can’t blame a religion or god or even an ideology for violence. What you are doing is surmountable to blaming non-theists and atheists for the nearly 100 million people that have died in Russian and China under communism. I’m sorry, you seem quite emotionally charged about it but it just seems to be a poorly constructed argument.
I’m sure you realize that Christianity doesn’t automatically make someone a good person and atheism or agnosticism or Panentheism or any other -ism doesn’t make someone above evil either. Some people have killed in the name of religion (though most have other hidden agendas) and some non-religious people have killed and raped and murdered too.
Hope you stick around -HaKohen
Eddie F., I’ve never seen you here before. You seem to be a bit of an anti-theist or agnostic or something so welcome to this discussion. You will certainly present a different view.
Ho-hum, I should call in Steve to vouch for me? OK – done! Yes, I am anti-whatever you want me to be. I am the best devil’s advocate you can find – ha!
I should say, you have a very interesting “tone” about you. Not unique by any stretch of the imagination… but interesting nonetheless. John Shelby Spong and Tom Harpur would be proud of you!
Ooops – Spong? What an insult! The guy is a hack – you Christians should execute that heretic. ;-)
Although you seem to have completely hijacked this thread I still feel the need to respond to something you said (as others have and will I’m sure). You said, “When last did terrorists blow up a building in the name of NO GOD?” That is an interesting question with tons of answers. Unfortunately for all of us though it comes down to – all the time.
You wish! Maybe you should go back to your history books – so DO TELL us – when?!?!? You can’t throw out a statement like that without ANY examples. Go on, give it your best shot!
Your assumption is that everything that hides behind a religious group is actually religious in and of itself. This is a clear fallacy. Your augment is based on a foolish assumption. Was religion really the reason behind the crusades? You would be hard-pressed to find a historian to agree with that assumption.
It is? Geeeezuz – what color is your sky? Yes, the crusades were done BECAUSE of what RELIGOIUS people believed their god required from them. They used YOUR bible to substantiate their position. Seems like you are actually the one committing the fallacy.
Was it Christianity or Sugarcane that caused the slave trade?
Slave trade is as old as your Old Testament – your god condones/encourages the practice! So dah – once again, the blame for this practice can be laid at the door of your religion.
Money… power… and basically every other form of greed and every conceivable evil reason has been used to insight violence.
Yes, it has, and that’s YOUR fallacy – because NONE of it was ever done in the NAME OF NO GOD. The individuals might have been godless, but they did not perpetrate their actions/crimes in the name of such a cause, or to spread such. I defy you as well: give me an example when they did. Unfortunately for you, the examples of where violence was perpetrated IN THE NAME OF YOUR GOD is countless.
Often the religions or lack of religions of certain individuals get blamed in the crossfire. But if you look honestly at it (and you believe that people are ultimately responsible for their own actions) then you can’t blame a religion or god or even an ideology for violence.
NO, I DO – because these lunatics uses their religion/holy books to substantiate their actions.
What you are doing is surmountable to blaming non-theists and atheists for the nearly 100 million people that have died in Russian and China under communism.
Sorry, but that’s YOUR fallacy, because none of this was done in the name of NO GOD, but instead, a political ideology of some crazy despot. These despots killed for their own goals, not for the goals of NO RELIGION – there is a huge difference. I am sure even YOU can see this.
I’m sorry, you seem quite emotionally charged about it but it just seems to be a poorly constructed argument.
Read it again, because you clearly are not getting it. Don’t blame me for a poorly constructed argument if you are too thick to come up with an answer. And don't be sorry for me - I am fine!
I’m sure you realize that Christianity doesn’t automatically make someone a good person and atheism or agnosticism or Panentheism or any other -ism doesn’t make someone above evil either.
Exactly my point – and why it’s utter bullshit to assume that someone without any god has no purpose for living. (coming back to the main thread of this post)
Some people have killed in the name of religion (though most have other hidden agendas) and some non-religious people have killed and raped and murdered too.
Uhm, did you see the trick you just did there? You admit that people did these things in the name of religion, and then you go on to say that non religious people have done *this* as well. Only problem, they did not do it in the name of NO RELIGION – thus, you are full of fallacies yourself.
Hope you stick around -HaKohen
Probably not, cuz I don't like working up theists.
It makes me wonder what drives you to contribute in this arena...is it anger about your former beliefs, or do you just really love getting people worked up...
Look, can we all stop trying to psychotherapize each other? None of us has a single stinking idea what is going on in the other's thoughts, so get off it.
Eddie{F},
You did just what you wanted to do. You got me "worked up". And you've done it... you comming in here being a dick has proven that you are the better person for your non-belief.
Well I can see that you are not quite smart enough to read so I will explain your error more simply.
Your only real augment here is that you say these people did not openly commit their atrocities in the name of nothingness. It is an augment from nothing.
Most of what people think of as religious wars are actually more about profit. It is about the hijacking of a religion for personal gain. But… some people still do evil things in the name of their faith. It is a sad reality. Murders are done in the name of Christianity.
At the same time atheism has been used in the same way. Stalin: a communist and atheist ruler (as all true communists are) killed somewhere around 40 million people. But again most of this was about the hijacking of the ideology for personal gain (just as the crusades were). But… some people have murdered in the name of atheism such as Saloth Sar who killed 1.5 million people in Cambodia. He openly executed anyone with any religious affiliation who would not denounce their God. Thus he killed in the name of atheism. Did he really have to say “This is because of what I don’t believe in!”?
Your argument is about them not talking about a God they don't believe in... your argument is week!
And just in case you are not convinced by the millions of numbers of human lives - how about this one name: Rachel Joy Scott
She was executed at Columbine High School, by an atheist, for believing in God.
eddie - you seem awfully defensive for someone who seems to have found a far more enlightend state of living than us dillusioned (?) Christians. And your need for validation (especially Steve's) also seems a bit odd...whatever.
You never did repsond to the line that zeke lifted from me, as to your motivations... oh wait, that's right, you said I wasn't "equipped" for it. wow...
So there is one of your universal themes in particular that keeps standing out to me...and that is your amazing talent at stereotyping...no wait, there's a better term for it, I call it short-sighted profiling. Let me explain. You are correct in most, if not all of your portails of many Christians throughout History and the present. But even through my ill-equipped haze of understanding, I can see that many do not equal all. I believe I have never claimed that ALL Christians are somehow infallible, and free from guilt or sin. If I find five other persons from various walks of life that drive the same car as yours, or share the same taste in music, should I automatically damn you all to the same demographic?
I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would defend ALL Christians as some kind of 'untouchable' holy group. What makes Christianity unique (as God designed it according to His word), is that it is in fact NOT a religion, but a personal relatonship that each individual is free to explore at their own will. Have far to many humans taken this perfect and beautiful gift and bastardized it into the various forms of religion and beyond we see today? Of course, but I don't speak for them. I speak for what I believe. And as long I can stand firm in THAT belief, it matters not what others do claiming that same God's name.
For someone who has obviously settled into a "Christ-Free" existance, I find you to be incredibly hostile towards the Christian faith. In my experience, it is the things we most often attack that are in turn lacking or unfullfilled (unresolved) in our own lives. Again, from my unqualified, and entirely laymen standpoint, I'm sure I am way off target...
eddie - you seem awfully defensive for someone who seems to have found a far more enlightend state of living than us dillusioned (?) Christians. And your need for validation (especially Steve's) also seems a bit odd...whatever.
You never did repsond to the line that zeke lifted from me, as to your motivations... oh wait, that's right, you said I wasn't "equipped" for it. wow...
So there is one of your universal themes in particular that keeps standing out to me...and that is your amazing talent at stereotyping...no wait, there's a better term for it, I call it short-sighted profiling. Let me explain. You are correct in most, if not all of your portails of many Christians throughout History and the present. But even through my ill-equipped haze of understanding, I can see that many do not equal all. I believe I have never claimed that ALL Christians are somehow infallible, and free from guilt or sin. If I find five other persons from various walks of life that drive the same car as yours, or share the same taste in music, should I automatically damn you all to the same demographic?
I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone who would defend ALL Christians as some kind of 'untouchable' holy group. What makes Christianity unique (as God designed it according to His word), is that it is in fact NOT a religion, but a personal relatonship that each individual is free to explore at their own will. Have far to many humans taken this perfect and beautiful gift and bastardized it into the various forms of religion and beyond we see today? Of course, but I don't speak for them. I speak for what I believe. And as long I can stand firm in THAT belief, it matters not what others do claiming that same God's name.
For someone who has obviously settled into a "Christ-Free" existance, I find you to be incredibly hostile towards the Christian faith. In my experience, it is the things we most often attack that are in turn lacking or unfullfilled (unresolved) in our own lives. Again, from my unqualified, and entirely laymen standpoint, I'm sure I am way off target...
sorry....not sure how that happened!!!
Lowendaction, don't worry about him. He is not interested in questions any longer he is just here to make people mad. I just thought I'd give him a chance to have a real discussion again but he just wanted to push his hatred as far as he could.
Eddie Fourie was a struggling Christian for a long time. He devoted himself to the search for truth and saw himself as a part of the “emerging” or “out-churched” peoples. But like many of these people, the lack of community began to create more problems that it solved. He used to run a page fairly similar to this one but the longer he did the further down the spiral he went. In the end Eddie {F} fell inside his owe sorrows. He is now divorced and lonely and has redirected his anger at anyone who professes to be a Christian. He hates our God and he hates us simply for believing in what he no longer can (though he wants to). He spends his time (without his kids he has a lot) auguring with Christians online and using the same tired lines of defense. He has said nothing new here that he hasn’t said in 10 other places. He is a sad person and deserves our pity.
I’m done posting with you now Eddie. Your simple rants don’t work on me. I’m smarter than you.
SCP Blog Etiquette
We are fascinated by all the energy being created here at our little bitty site called Stupid Church People! One thing is obvious, we come from a wide variety of backgrounds; a broad spectrum of beliefs, and a myriad of different personality styles. With the name of our site and the nature of our commentary you might think the sky's the limit here and you can say anything you want. Well, to a degree this is true. At SCP, we are trying to build something positive. Although somewhat controversial and offensive at times...we still desire there to be a positive outcome. Our goal, is for people to talk and discuss together what we are sharing and thinking.
However, Steve and I felt it was necessary to share with you some Blog Etiquette guidelines we found on another site that we thought were written very well. I have slightly tweaked them for our uses here.
Now, I want to differentiate for a second between the Blog and the Podcasts. Steve and I feel the Podcasts have a very different flavor and intent than the Blogs. On the Podcasts we take many liberties with the spoken word. We are trying to have fun, speak our mind and let it fly. Think of it as if you were sitting at the next table to us at a restaurant as Steve and I spout off all types of things. Seriously, if you were to follow us around, we have lunch a couple a times a week and this is what we do. Then one day a week we get together and tape it. The Podcasts are thoughts (often not very well thought out ones) that typically provide us with something that we will Blog about later. The Blogs are more thought out (see number three below) so we understand that what we write should be held to a higher scrutiny.
First, here are some great general rules for our purposes (as found on MMIBlog.com and written by Tally Wilgis at his blog):
1. Each blog you visit is the internet "home" of someone.
You wouldn't dare walk into a home and run your mouth at the host. It's inappropriate to do on blogs as well. It's just ugly and you end up looking stupid. Don't do it. It's immature.
2. Any attack on a blog is a public attack.
It's one thing to debate a friend in college where it's you two in a room or sitting out on the grass with no one else around. Imagine if you took some of those debates and broadcasted them to every dorm room on campus. Yeah. Be aware of what you say. You can look stupid, no matter how 'valid' your point may be.
3. It takes time to type so people will judge you a little tougher.
When everyone knows you took time to type your thought it gets a little more scrutiny than if you just said something in a conversation. It's one thing (still dumb) to blurt out something ignorant in a conversation b/c you don't have the facts or you come off as rude but to type it solidifies any thought of you being immature or ignorant. Read what you type. You have time to think it through!
4. A sign of maturity is the ability to delay gratification.
One thing that separates a mature person from the immature is the ability to hold back from immediate gratification. This is true for the blog world. We all have opinions.
If you have a brain you have a thought but not every thought has to be brought forward and presented in the dialogue. I try to operate on terms of 'value added'. When I'm considering posting I ask "Is what I'm about to say going to add value to the conversation?" My "opinion" sometimes means NOTHING to the core of the author's post. Therefore I keep my golden brain to myself no matter how great I think I may be at the time.
5. Watch out for Ad Hominem arguments.
Not to insult all of you fine readers, but I had to look this one up.
An ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument by addressing the person presenting the argument as a basis for the argument being incorrect, as opposed to pointing out a flaw in the argument.
The jest of an Ad hominem is that it's an attack on the person rather than the argument. I see this so much in the blog world it makes me sick.
Goes a little like this--
BLOG POST: "So and so is doing something amazing for God."
Immature Commenter: "So and so is a blank and blank. Why doesn't so and so just become more humble, (LIKE ME)!"
Don't attack the person. If you disagree and you must get your thought on record, do it in a civil way. Don't go after people. If you must respond, talk about the idea presented.
6. You can be both true and wrong at the same time!
For many immature bloggers they don't understand that perception is reality. Although the context of what they are saying is true, how they are spraying it is wrong. For effective communication both parts must be able to be received.. the saying AND the spraying.
Those who don't want to work to make their communication better received by their audience have lowered themselves to bully status. "I'll say what I want and you WILL listen or else". The 'or else' in blog world is usually "Or else I'll keep posting!"
7. A challenge to your idea is not an attack on you personally. You as the "poster" have to differentiate. It goes both ways. If you feel like your idea is being challenged it is easy to take that personally. I know...trust me. However, I have been guilty of responding as if the person meant their comments towards me personally. It is hard to read voice inflection, etc in comments, so take it all with a grain of salt. This blogging and commenting is great for developing thick skin.
Now for some more specific rules for the SCP website:
1. Stick to the subject. All discussions to the blog will need to stay on topic. If the author posts a topic with or without questions, just respond to that. Seems fair, right?
2. Keep it Short. Each person will be allowed to post up to 5 comments per blog topic (I think this is quite liberal). These should be kept as short as possible. If you want to have a running dialogue with another commenter (especially when it is off topic), get their email address or phone number and go to lunch.
3. Don't Get Personal. There will be no tolerance for personal attacks. Steve and I might be the object of a personal attack but please do not feel the need to add fuel to the fire by personally attacking anyone on our behalf. And if someone attacks you personally... just walk away. For me, I am taking the policy of not responding to anything I deem to be a personal attack on me. I will not be baited and neither should you.
4. Feel Free to Disagree, but... There will be room to discuss different thoughts and ideas... and to disagree. I will continue to tap into controversial topics from time to time and allow for input, but the input should not turn ugly or judgemental. Be gracious and kind, even when disagreeing. As it has been said, "If you are right, but you are rude, then you're wrong!"
Bottom Line: All that a personal attack or immature comment does is bring the site, it's purpose and the dialogue to a screeching halt. People stop by, see all the bickering and figure it is just a waste of time to be involved. If that is your intent, my suggestion is for you to get your own blog. That's a great way to get your message out to the world.
That's it. I really hope that this will set the stage for the SCP site to continue to grow and honor God, each other and our individual expressions.
Josh (and his little bitch Steve)
thanx for the info ha koen.
and thanx for the parental correction guys. it's easy to get caught up in this stuff, and I appreciate you wranglin' things back in.
(well written josh...and people say yer dum, tsk tsk tsk)
eddie: no offense, but whether you worship Santa Clause, Rosie O'donnell or Linux OS, you're still a friggin' idiot.
It’s a well documented FACT that agnostic/atheistic countries are the most socially progressive
well documented?? hhahaha.
How many agnostic/atheist "countries" are there in the world again?
Better question: How many irreligious "countries" exist???
Let me educate you eddie, the worst genocides in human history are at the bloody hands of pagan/atheists.
Stalin: atheist/communist, also wanted to abolish religion.
Hitler: pagan/nationalist, pandered to the Church only to spread his Aryan cleansing nonsense, he professed openly his hatred for the Church, Jews, and Christians. Churches were destroyed and closely surveyed by the SS. Christians repeatedly tried to assassinate him!
Pol Pot: nominally a Buddhist but later the Khmer Rouge tried to abolish religion!
mussolini: interesting tidbit about him---->
It is said that Mussolini (the Italian dictator), once stood on a pinnacle and cried, "God, if you are there, strike me dead!" When God didn't immediately bow to his dictates, Mussolini then concluded that there was no God. However, his prayer was answered some time later.
so anyways, mussolini, fascist DICTATOR = Atheist.
Mao Zedongjust google his "Little Red Book" and other sites about his personality cult. He was not religious, unless you consider self-worship " religion."
Slobodan Milosevicformer Yugoslavian dictator killed millions (atheist)
“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism”
Vladimir Lenin
There goes your conveniently made-up statistics.
how's that for ad hominem, biatches???
Ok, not going to pursue this further (out of respect for the blog owners), but will respond to ha hoken's bullshit pshycoanalysis of me on my own blog.
Cheers guys!
;-)
josh, I read the first half of paragraph one.
bORRRRRRIIIIINGGGG.
Can you make the Terms and Conditions a separate blue link so we can ignore it with more ease?? My previous post is about to get swallowed by your SCP commandments.
eddie what's up dog can't take the heat? cmon dude this was just gettin' fun! I understand. I don't wanna hang around when some negro just dunked on me in a pick up game either. Toodles!
4. Feel Free to Disagree, but... There will be room to discuss different thoughts and ideas... and to disagree. I will continue to tap into controversial topics from time to time and allow for input, but the input should not turn ugly or judgemental.
Big Brother is watching.
well....perfect time for a group hug!!
good night...
I have a question about rule # 2. What happens if a poster exceeds his 5 posts? Will the additional posts be deleted? Also, what is the rule on how long a post or comment can be? What is no longer considered "short"? Now, how do you propose to handle the people who do not wish to follow the rule concerning personal attacks? Will you ban them from the site in some way? If so, what is to stop them from making a new name and posting again. You will then have to be on the lookout for "sock puppets". These are names that people create to post under, when they have been gagged or banned, usually from a forum, so they can get around the punishment they rightly received. Can you even ban someone from posting on a blog? The rules you have laid out are well thought out rules. However, they seem more properly suited to an internet forum environment that has moderators to see that the rules are enforced. I used to do this. Will SCP be adopting moderators for this site or will this be something that you guys (Steve and Josh) handle yourselves?
I can only speak for myself on this although Josh posted it here....
Those posting "guidelines" are somewhat arbitrary. They need to be updated in my opinion. And if you look through the "guidelines" it is more about how we need to try and treat each other once we are here and having a discussion.
I think the part that is most important is the issues of ad hominem attacks. It's easy to get drawn into that and I am constantly being baited to do so... and I have been drawn in now and again. Also, it is funny to see how many Jr. Psychologists there are on this current thread.... not debating with a person, but trying to analyze them, trying to presume what you know and don't know about a person based on how you read what they write. I have done it too and am tempted to do it again time and again.
And let me reiterate something that has been mentioned by a few here that apparently just don't get it...my having worked on staff at Saddleback has ZERO to do with this post. I worked at Saddleback many years ago and what the church was then, who Rick was then, who I was then... all of those things have changed.
Just because I disagree with Rick Warren and what he has written in the first point of his book, it doesn't mean that I hate the man, have a personal vendetta, resent him or am angry at him in any way shape or form. That would be a completely wrong assumption.
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