Jesus Meets Tony Hawk
posted by Steve at
10/16/2006
Monday, October 16, 2006
SCP FEATURES
- SCP NATION
- JOSH'S BLOG
- ASHLEY'S ART (Josh's Wife)
- SCP MYSPACE PAGE
- April 2005
- May 2005
- June 2005
- July 2005
- August 2005
- September 2005
- October 2005
- November 2005
- December 2005
- January 2006
- February 2006
- March 2006
- April 2006
- May 2006
- June 2006
- July 2006
- August 2006
- September 2006
- October 2006
- November 2006
- December 2006
- January 2007
- February 2007
- March 2007
- April 2007
- May 2007
- June 2007
- July 2007
- August 2007
- September 2007
- October 2007
- November 2007
- December 2007
- January 2008
- February 2008
- March 2008
- April 2008
- May 2008
- June 2008
- July 2008
- August 2008
- September 2008
- October 2008
- November 2008
- December 2008
- January 2009
- February 2009
- March 2009
- April 2009
- May 2009
- June 2009
- July 2009
- August 2009
- September 2009
- October 2009
- November 2009
- December 2009
- January 2010
- February 2010
- March 2010
- April 2010
Archives
59 Comments:
Hung over drinking coffee to try to clear the cobwebs while I watch the Sunday morning news melee.
WOW... no way, dude! This is so righteous, man.
In fact, I think I'm going to submit a catchy tagline to these radical dudes for Christ:
"Skate or die... then go to hell (if you don't come and "hang out" at our way-cool-hip-post-modern-uber-GenX-notChurchy-thing, that is)"
If you look closely at that flyer, you can actually see an empty space where this dead-on hook phrase could be plugged in.
Hey Steve... could you put in a good word for me? I know you have those strong inside conects...
totally radical!!!
my guess is this guy's going to be at the skate park (except i think it's probably really difficult to skate in those sort of pants.) unless this guy works fast food because all he really wants to do is skate. then he'll probably be at work.
this points me to one of my real beefs with the church; they're lazy. this supposed person on this invitation is out "there", aka "in the world" and some person along the way obviously thought, "hey, the church all meets in a place. we're supposed to be spreading the good news. wouldn't it be killing two birds with one stone if all of those people came to us instead? man, that would be easy." (this same person would probably be the one to ask Christ a specific location of where "in the world" was for him. just so that person wasn't "wasting" their time with all of those other people "in the world" but not in this one particular persons "the world". . . k, bye . ..(wanders off in search of cookies)
It might look like a church trying to be cool, but having gone to look at the church website, turns out the guy on the picture is one of the pastors. He's an ex-pro skateboarder as is someone else on the staff.
So what are they selling? Jesus or the ex-pro skateboarding dude? Either way, it rings of hollow church crap.
Dufflehead makes a great point. That is why we do not make flyers for events or invitations to our church. As a pastor, I want the people who I work with to learn to love people where they are without any motivation to get them to our church. I believe that if the relationships are real enough, the people will eventually invite themselves.
So as Dufflehead says, don't be lazy. Go to be with people and if they come to church... great.
Of course I only say this because I am not a hip ex-pro skateboarding hip dude. Maybe I could put a picture of me from the 80's wearing some neon colored ski pants and all the skiers will flock to our church!
This reminds me alot of what Stephen Baldwin is currently doing. His ministry is called Livin' It. www.livinit.org
Read Below:
The Livin It Alliance is a strategic partnership connecting Christian action sports ministries in skate, BMX, FMX, surfing and snowboarding.
A couple of months ago I saw Stephen Baldwin in person. He came to the church I was serving at as a youth volunteer and presented this "vision" of his. Then he pretty much asked us to shell out the dough to support him in his vision! LOL Can you imagine? Barney Rubble was fleecin' the flock! Amazing! Absolutley amazing! Guess it just goes to show that God can use ANYONE to do His work.
I'd rather see something like this than a poster with a youth leader with his shaved head, soul patch, and a tagline reading, "Come listen to me talk for half-an-hour".
Any youth leader worth his salt knows that no hook would keep 'em away by the thousands
hey zec...something, thanx for the "livinit" link, I actually think it looked pretty cool. I can't speak to Stephen's financial interests, but the operation seems to be on the up and up.
I mean, does it really get any better than pullin' a wicked 360-halfbaked-fackie-kickflipmajigger for the cause of Christ? I think not. Real fellowship, is holding hands with your buddy in the emergency room, while you're having your tailbone reattached.
I say, Mr. Baldwin should continue working on loosing weight on national TV, and let the "scabs for Christ" ministry continue "living it"...whatever "it" is. I thought that was e-bay's thing... whatever!
Would it be better if he was holding a beer? Or maybe they shouldn't advertise at all. Maybe the question is: how do you let people know about your church without "marketing" it?
We have stated in the past that we are not against church, but we have also said that we don't like how they run, function, or market themselves.
I think the advertisment is probably very effective to their target demograghic. Who cares? It's not what is on the sign that matters anyway. It's what they bring to people once they walk through the door and what they can offer to people outside the door.
that's where i think you miss the entire point. the church shouldn't "need" to market itself. why let people know about your church? what, exactly, is the point of getting people in the door? so that the local congregation can rationalize their budget or feel like they are doing something worthwhile with their money? to get the money of a "demographic" by a minipulation of the emotions?
and, no, it wouldn't be better if he was holding a beer. why are you stuck on beer? maybe you should go have one.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
So we shouldn't market at all??? Then why have signs saying its a "church". Anything that thrives does so by advertisement, even if its just word of mouth.
So were not supposed to invite people to church, have signs, posters, or mailings....hummm oh yeah and no dumb signs, did I mention we are against signs.
So how is it people are supposed to know churches exist again???
People know the locations of hospitals, schools, and important events because of advertising. Why is it that that church is expected to function any differently in the same society?
shefrog77,
I totally understand what you're saying. I really do!
The problem lies in the deceptive manner in which most churches market themselves.
The approach is best compared to one of those time share deals where they say, "Come to our resort for 3 days and win a free digital camera", but what they don't tell you is that you have to sit through a very high-pressure sales pitch, filled with much condemnation and guilt, especially if you walk away without signing up.
This skateboarder ad is the same thing. Sure, they might set up skateboard ramps or whatever, but I guarantee you that in order to participate, there is a mandatory church service, designed to pressure them toward the gospel.
Now there's nothing wrong with the gospel. I'm all for it. But, Jesus and Peter and the rest of those guys in the Bible turned the world upside down. After one Holy Spirit inspired sermon, Peter's church was 3,000 members strong-- the first megachurch. And not once does the Bible mention Peter's marketing ploy or his sign out front that says "Seven days without prayer makes one weak", or whatever.
Personally, I have no problem with this particular ad. It's a church. People understand that you get preached to in church. I think church signs with goofy sayings are funny (although a quirky saying would never entice me to attend).
But if you're truly honest with yourself, you'll agree that much of what the church calls "marketing" is very disingenuous, relying on the ol' bait & switch, instead of Holy Spirit inspiration, to get them in.
Last time I read, it is the goodness of God that calls men to repentance, not the creativity of marketing.
Sable,
I watched that video you posted. As it turns out, this skateboard-church ad is actually Christian Hosoi's church (Christian is a pro-skateboard-god, of sorts).
So they probably do a LOT of skateboarding there... interesting.
As has been said ad infinitum - the most effective (the only?) 'marketing' is relationships. When someone comes to church because someone who genuinely cares for them has invited them along. (Of course, there seems to be a lot of people on here who think that inviting to people to a church service is a wrong objective, but let's leave that aside for the moment).
Sometimes just having a flyer/invitation makes that invitation easier to extend. It's about removing the obstacles and the excuses. And I think that's often the motivation of the people who produce these things ... "If we produce some really credible invites, people won't feel embarrassed about inviting friends and family".
But the downside is people often tend to think, I don't need to do anything anyone coz we've got all this whole marketing dept to do it for me. Bit of a Catch 22.
Flyers, invites, posters, ads etc ... doubt if they're going to cause people to follow Jesus on their own. But they do remind people that the Church is still present (even if embarressingly so), and my opinion is that derision and scorn are better than being forgotten & ignored.
Did Jesus and the early church have NO marketing? Not a rhetorical question.
"Did Jesus and the early church have NO marketing?"
I think that Jesus and the early church had "word of mouth" advertising. Plus they had all those flashy miracles they could do.
Peter and the other apostles didn't have PowerPoint presentations, but they had the ability to heal the sick and to cast out demons. Can we really compare the two? Which would you rather see? Plus Peter had that whole walking on water thing too.
I think if the church today, had the ability to perform legitimate miracles, like Jesus did, ya know without the prescreening of those to be healed, then more people might believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
Recorded eyewitness testimony is not the best evidence for proving something to be true. But isn't that what the bible essentially is? As Christians aren't we really asking people to take the word of people who lived thousands of years ago, on faith?
I think people would have more faith today in Christ, if they could see Him for themselves, and touch Him like Thomas did, manifest in the flesh and performing miracles for them. But then again maybe not. I mean when your heart is filled wtih doubt and your goal is to disprove everything you see and hear, because you're a skeptic, then no amount of "proof" is ever going to convince you.
I don't think there is one miracle from the biblethat if performed today, would convince anyone because it could all be rationalized or explained away. So where does that leave us, as Christians and as part of the church? Not a rhetorical question
Interesting thoughts...
You said: "I think if the church today, had the ability to perform legitimate miracles, like Jesus did, ya know without the prescreening of those to be healed, then more people might believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life."
Are you saying we don't have that ability, or we prescreen to much? I was a little confused on that one.
I read nothing in the Bible where that ever stopped being possible.
Now heres a thought, why don't we bring in people and get them healed and proove God is real...I like the way you think Zecryphon.
there is no way to prove God is real.
as the buddha said:
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "
"Confusious Say, `all the wisdom of man is foolishness to God'".
Hmmm...
confucious didn't say that. paul did. are you trying to use that quote to prove that God exists? hmmm?
Are you trying to pick a fight...hummmmm
I thought we were a kinder gentler SCP???
Always one bad apple in the barrel I guess.
Did you say that there is no way to prove God is real Duffle? That is just stupid. If you can't prove He exists then why do you believe in Him? There is a multiplicity of ways to prove God exists. As a matter of fact I think any rational person would have a hard time disproving the existence of God.
Maybe, you can give more insights from Buddha on the subject.
ok, prove to me that God exists. should be easy with this supposed "multiplicity" you speak of.
here's a fun word to help us out, david.
faith. from dictionary.com we learn that faith is "belief that is not based on proof"
and, david, do you believe in God because you can prove that God exists?
shefrog, am i picking a fight by pointing out that you quoted the wrong person?
or because i think your "hmms" are snotty?
I'd personally go with "snarky" myself.
So...are you saying I'm "getting" to you??
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
As I no longer want to use SCP as a venue to argue and agravate, I have made a post about "proving God" on my blog. If you would like to comment there I welcome it. If not feel free to comment here 4 or 5 times in a row as that is probably the way it is preferred that you do so.
"Interesting thoughts..."
Wow! A fan! hehehehe :-)
"You said: "I think if the church today, had the ability to perform legitimate miracles, like Jesus did, ya know without the prescreening of those to be healed, then more people might believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.""
"Are you saying we don't have that ability, or we prescreen to much? I was a little confused on that one."
Yes, I'm saying in my opinion, we don't have that ability. It is also my opinion, that we don't need it. I believe the disciples were given special gifts to give their testimony about Jesus some credibility. So that the people who saw and heard them would know that these were in fact, truly men of God.
"I read nothing in the Bible where that ever stopped being possible."
It may be possible. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence for it though.
"Now heres a thought, why don't we bring in people and get them healed and proove God is real..."
I don't think a person who is a guest at a church, maybe because one of their "saved" friends brought them there or they wandered in on their own, is going to let themselves be healed or turn their lives over to Jesus, because they've been exposed to an hour of the consumer-based type of Christianity that seems to be all the rage in this country. There's just too many factors that are involved when making a decision with eternal ramifications, like turning your life over to Jesus or at least there should be.
"I like the way you think Zecryphon."
:-)
This is a point many here have discussed in the past. Miracles do exist, but purpose of the miracles is not to put on a show for the church people. Miracles exist to be a sign to unbelievers.
I propose if you bring in a hopeless person with cancer to church, and they leave without the tumor they came with - They will give their heart to God. Who wouldn't.
God has not changed, He is the same. If miracles existed, then they have not stopped. Just because you have not personally experianced one does not mean they do not.
It is your choice to not believe, but I guarantee if you need one you might be a little more open minded about the subject.
We are Christians to bring hope to the hopeless. God has given us all the tools we need to do that. Jesus came for the same reason, and told us to go and do likewise. We exist as a church to help people, to love people, and share hope with people. This is why we bring them in, or go to their house, or talk to people at church. We have something to offer. I for one choose not to just exist and not make a difference when I have the ability to make a difference.
Miracles or not, we call all share hope to the hopeless.
I think that there's one huge factor being left out here. We are debating whether or not "hip" ads like the one for The Sanctuary are in fact helping or hurting the cause of Christ, whether or not it is bringing people to Christ or driving them away. Should Church be marketed to people by demographic or what? What is the Church doing? One would hope that whatever means of drawing people in, the Church is preaching the Gospel. What is the Gospel? St. Paul writes:
Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
The Gospel is the power of God! Who are we to discount the Power of the Gospel to those who hear it because we did not agree with the manner in which it is "advertised" or preached. St. Paul also writes:
Philippians 1:18 What does it matter? Just this, that Christ is proclaimed in every way, whether out of false motives or true; and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice
Why do we care that a guy holding a skateboard is asking you to come to Church? If this was your Church, perhaps you would want to speak with your pastor/priest/minister about it, but other than that, what are we going to say? *No for heaven's sake, don't preach the gospel through skateboarding!* or *My Goodness! I don't believe that you could possibly be sincere about the Gospel when you put out ads like that!* Just let the Gospel be preached by whatever means necessary, because no matter how it's done, it is the Power of God for salvation to those who hear and believe and there is nothing any skateboarding reverend can do to limit the working of God.
My only concern is ministers with huge emphasis on monetary donation to further their ministries. St Paul writes here:
1Corinthians 9:18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in my proclamation I may make the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my rights in the gospel.If we are placing terms on the Gospel of our own manufacture, God help us.
I would challenge anyone who criticized the ad to each write a Blog entry entirely devoted to the things they like about the Church. Remember, Jesus asked St. Paul on the road to Damascus:
Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 He asked, "Who are you, Lord?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
The Church is the Bride of Christ. Granted we are susceptable to messing things up from time to time and are in need of straightening, but this should be done to the Church in a loving way shouldn't it? What we do to the least of us, we do also to Christ.
Never underestimate Jesus Christ. It is His Gospel, it is His Church, it is His merits that won our redemption from slavery to our own flesh and ultimately it is He that works in the heart of everyone who hears the Gospel, whether out of false motives or pristine, or even a skateboarding minister.
I am honored to be the first to respond to your comment. I don't know how I could have said it better. Great man, thank you.
Found your blog 2 skips over from New Life Emerging...
Anyhow...my comment on this post is,
Skateboarding is not a crime!
Amen.
"I propose if you bring in a hopeless person with cancer to church, and they leave without the tumor they came with - They will give their heart to God. Who wouldn't."
I belive that people who don't believe in God or miracles would not give their heart to God based upon this one experience. They might believe that it's just a coincidence. Maybe it was a combination of the chemo, the medication and the other therapy that finally worked and that's what is responsible for there being no more cancer. I mean that's a lot more rational than believing some god that no one can prove exists actually healed you right? That's the type of person who wouldn't believe. And they are out there.
I don't believe a person can walk into a church and be healed without faith in God. All the healings in the bible that we read about worked because the people who were healed had faith in Jesus as the son of God to heal them.
"God has not changed, He is the same. If miracles existed, then they have not stopped."
No they have not stopped. But miracles are not an everday occurence. They are few and far between. So the miraculous healing of a person who has terminal cancer after having hands laid upon them would indeed be a miracle, even more so if the person had no faith. But for it to remain miraculous it can't happen every time a faith healer puts his hands upon a person who is ill.
"Just because you have not personally experianced one does not mean they do not."
Never said it did.
"It is your choice to not believe, but I guarantee if you need one you might be a little more open minded about the subject."
No, I guarantee that if I need to be healed I'm gonna go to my doctor. You can't just sit on your hands and say "this is God's will, I'm not gonna do anything and just let God deal with it." You have to take action. The first action might be going to your doctor, then if all else fails and you've tried everything you can think of, then you can turn it over to God. God gave us all a powerful mind to figure out solutions to our problems. If something doesn't work at first, we try something else.
"We are Christians to bring hope to the hopeless."
Actually we do nothing of the sort. We can share with people what God has done for us and what he could do for them. It's actions more than words that will convince a person that Jesus is at work in our lives. You can bring people to church or you can go door-to-door and tell them what God has done for you, sure. But why should they believe you? A much more effective witness is to show them that you are a changed person and are a child of Christ. One way to do that is to leave them alone, don't bother them at home with tracts and evangelizing efforts. Respect their space.
It is the work of the Holy Spirit that gives people hope and brings them to faith in Christ. Not Christians going door-to-door telling preaching at them the preferred "turn or burn" gospel.
"God has given us all the tools we need to do that."
What tools would those be?
"Jesus came for the same reason, and told us to go and do likewise."
Jesus came to teach us and save the entire world.
"We exist as a church to help people, to love people, and share hope with people."
That's one of many reasons, yes.
"This is why we bring them in, or go to their house, or talk to people at church. We have something to offer."
Actually, it's God who has something to offer, not us. We have to remember that this is all about God and not us.
"I for one choose not to just exist and not make a difference when I have the ability to make a difference."
What are you doing to make a difference? And who's to say I'm just sitting on the side lines doing nothing?
"Miracles or not, we call all share hope to the hopeless."
We sure can, we just have to judge who is hopeless and according to Jesus whatever standard we use to judge someone that same standard will be applied to us. It's quite a pickle, don't you agree?
Shieldsy said...
It might look like a church trying to be cool, but having gone to look at the church website, turns out the guy on the picture is one of the pastors.
To me, it still looks like a church trying to be cool.
Thedavidsoftulsa said...
Would it be better if he was holding a beer? Or maybe they shouldn't advertise at all. Maybe the question is: how do you let people know about your church without "marketing" it?
I think it's OK for churches to market. In America it is one way we let people know that we have something to sell, or a product we want them to check out, or that we have a deal to offer them. However, I don't think it's necessary or a prerequsite for churches to market or advertise, but most churches follow that operating principle to vie for people's attention.
It's not what is on the sign that matters anyway. It's what they bring to people once they walk through the door...
That's true. But often what you promote says a lot about what you are "bringing" to the people. If you "false advertise" you should expect that the "back door exit" will be equal to (if not larger) the front door "promises" that it takes to get them there.
Something I was told once regarding advertising and the church has stuck with me... "Whatever it takes to get them here, it takes to keep them here."
To me, it still looks like a church trying to be cool.
Steve, I think you make a good point with a bad example.
As it turns out, the Pastor (the guy in the ad) is a professional skateboarder. The associate pastor, Christian Hosoi, is not only a professional skateboarder, but probably one of the best who ever lived... probably even better than the aforementioned Tony Hawk.
Basically what I'm saying (not agreeing with the a-holes, of course) is that this church IS actually cool.
Hey, it's in my home town.
Point taken, Steve.
Jeff... give me some journalistic credit... will ya? :-)
I am aware of who these guys are, I went to the website before posting this... I knew the whole deal when I put it up. And that's precisely why I did because I feel like it emphatically proves my point.
It's not about whether they are actually cool or not (that in and of itself is highly subjective). It's the blatant attempt at appearances and trying SOOOO damn hard to relate and let people know just how COOL they might be that makes me laugh. Again, do I think it's a bad thing or a "they are going to hell" thing... no. Do I think it is somewhat laughable and funny... yes!
I have been around the preaching game long enough to know that you play every angle that you have to gain an audience. But to what end? Are we seriously that impressed that this guy is a former professional skater? Aren't we all professional somethings in life? To me it's another cheap gimmick.
Can they use their former pro status as skaters as a point of connection for those that share their passion for skating? Certainly.
Are they a relevant church just because they are skaters? Not in my opinion.
I don't think this lessens the potential impact of these men or their ministries. I am not saying anything personally negative against them. I am sure they attract the skate crowd, and I am sure they connect with them because of their former celebrity. It's just that the ad made me laugh.... and I thought I would share it and see if anyone else had anything else to say.
That's why I didn't post any commentary... I just thought we'd see where it went. Love the discussion and that we have several different points of view on this one.
Are they a relevant church just because they are skaters? Not in my opinion.
Just as "cool" is subjective, so is relevance.
They are not a relevant church at all if they do not preach the Gospel of Christ. It has nothing to do with whether they are skaters or not. Perhaps cultural relevance is a subjective thing, but the Gospel is objectively and eternally relevant, so as long as they preach the Gospel, culturally relevant or not, they are in fact more relevant than they are by social cliché alone.
Judge them not by their wheels, judge them on the basis of the Gospel alone, because that is the only relevance that really matters
Thats exactly correct J&J, there could not be a better response!!
Did J and J really say "Judge them not be their wheels"???
Now that's funny.
Hey Steve,
I know I'm coming late to the conversation (TM), but I found something a long time ago over at The Parish website that I feel sums up why things such as this actually run contrary to the gospel. Here's a little excerpt (hope you don't mind how long it is):
Q: Some would argue that Church's market themselves whether they like to or not; everything from a church's web design down to their order of services to whether they use fair trade coffee or not says something about the people that go there. If that is the case then at what point does church "marketing" go too far?
A: Ludwig Wittgenstein said every utterance has a home. In other words, all concepts, ideas, ideals, ethics, etc., make sense within a proper context. You can’t simply pull vocabulary from one cultural/linguistic/economic system (what Wittgenstein called a language game) and introduce it into a different system and not bring in some of the assumptions that give it coherence in its original home. Marketing has introduced demographics, homogeneous growth models, targeting and branding to the church. In marketing, the criterion for success is a successful marketing campaign. How do you define success when you mix marketing and church? I believe faithfulness is the telos of the church, not growth, not buildings, not offerings, nor any other false telos. Churches can have web sites, take out ads in papers, run television commercials, etc. That is not necessarily to adopt a marketing ethos. It’s simply to put yourself out there so someone who is looking can find you. But who is looking for a church? Unbelievers? Not usually. Marketing has had the unhappy (unless you’re a mega) result of attracting Christians from one church to another that seems to offer a better product. The moment you decide that you’ll accept transfer growth as a sign of the success of your marketing program, you’ve signed on to a different language game. You’re using the vocabulary of Christianity with the grammar of marketing. People should come to church because a friend invited them. We don’t want to do the hard work of developing friendships with people who are different from us, so we rely on techniques, marketing, gimmicks, productions, etc.
You can read the whole things (and the comments offer more insight) at: The Parish archives for January, Interview, Parts 1 and 2.
I did in fact say "judge them not by their wheels"
I stand by my words :)
Just a thought to respond to what ninjanun posted.
The greatest growth of any Church anywhere in the world right now is the Catholic Church in Africa and Eastern Asia. These are areas which have widespread poverty and disease, including epidemics of HIV/AIDS. I heard recently in a program on the AIDS issue that 1/4 of the AIDS clinics in the entire world are run by the Catholic Church, whether by religious orders (nuns, friars etc) or by organizations funded by the Catholic Church run by Catholics in these parts of the world.
What an interesting coincidence that where there is a great ministering in the practical sense, there is great growth in a practical sense. This is also growth by conversion, not by switching one to another.
St. Francis of Assisi once said that we should preach the Gospel to everyone we meet, and sometimes this might actually necessitate using words.
Food for thought
JandJ, I know exactly what you said... I just didn't want anyone else to miss it.
And I stand by my laughter, cause what you said was pretty damn funny.... but now it might not be so funny since I now believe that you weren't trying to be funny... but actually waaaay too serious. Maybe I am wrong?
But I do like what you wrote here when you said "where there is a great ministering in the practical sense, there is great growth in a practical sense" although I do not believe the two necessarily or always go hand in hand.... and just for curiosity's sake, where do you get your stats that the "greatest growth of any Church anywhere in the world right now is the Catholic Church in Africa and Eastern Asia." Not disputing you, but interested in your source for that.
i was trying to be funny actually. I tried to throw in the :) so you'd know I was smiling too. Sorry for the mix up :)
My bad... I guess Catholics can be funny after all.
:-)
My source was actually a Dominican Priest named father Francis, I believe, whom I had the pleasure of speaking with this summer at a retreat. He was actually heavily involved with HIV/AIDS work in Rwanda and Uganda, where there has been a big push for abstinence and sexual education that centres on monogamy and family. He was quite an enlightening individual
and for clarity's sake, the source for the Church Growth comment was from the Dominican Priest and the source for the percentage of HIV/AIDS clinics in the world was from a program that aired on Salt + Light TV network here in Canada. Just to avoid confusion
jandj,
I agree that where the gospel is preached (in deed, not only in word) there is true growth and the true "making of disciples." I think in some small part, that is what my quote was getting at (as opposed to the marketing ploys and assimilation of the 1st world consumer-mindset that the Evangelical church of America so often engages in). I think the Catholic church has a better grasp of preaching the gospel in this sense than many Evangelical churches do. :)
Hey ninjanun, how exactly do you preach the Gospel besides in word?
Snarky britches.
As far as church groups preaching the gospel, I don't know of any group that has a grasp on preaching the Gospel. Just my two cents, anyway.
I have no idea what your talking about ninjanun, you make no sense.
It was kinda Snarky.
You said:
I agree that where the gospel is preached (in deed, not only in word) there is true growth and the true "making of disciples."
So how exactly do you preach in deed. Preaching requires words. Making desciples is not a result of preachng the Gospel. Making desciples is teaching people how to preach the Gospel.
J&J - I loved your comment : They are not a relevant church at all if they do not preach the Gospel of Christ.
I totally love that and agree whole heartedly!!!
SheFrog (and also Marc)... you are objecting to Ninja's statement where she wrote "I agree that where the gospel is preached (in deed, not only in word) there is true growth and the true "making of disciples." Here she is actually agreeing with a comment that JandJ wrote when she said, "St. Francis of Assisi once said that we should preach the Gospel to everyone we meet, and sometimes this might actually necessitate using words."
To Ninja, your retort is (SheFrog) "So how exactly do you preach in deed. Preaching requires words." And Marc you said: "Hey ninjanun, how exactly do you preach the Gospel besides in word?"
This actually goes against the teaching of scripture (and I might add common sense). You can teach (or preach) with your actions and deeds... and as a matter of fact I believe our actions can be much more powerful teaching tools than our words. As a parent Marc you no doubt know that how we act around others (especially are kids) is a much more powerful teaching tool than what we say. And the Bible agrees...
Colossians 3:17: And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
James 2: 17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
And then, probably the biggest illustration of this comes in Matthew 25, when Jesus talks about our actions and how they speak volumes about whats in our hearts. He seems to basically be saying, "Yeah you can preach all you want about helping others, but what did you DO?"
So in my view, Ninja and JandJ are correct when she alludes to the idea about preaching in word and in deed. And the Bible agrees as in 1 Cor 13: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. And it continues that words will pass away, prophecies will pass, even our actions will pass... but our actions done in love and with a pure heart will not fail.
So in this sense.. preaching in deeds might even supercede preaching with words. I am not clear as to how you guys see it any other way. In fact, in the church and christendom, there are way too many words... we need to talk less and do more.... and this is a fact I was certain you both would agree with Ninja and I.
preach [preech] –verb (used with object) 1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.).
2. to deliver (a sermon).
3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.
Actually by definition preaching requires words. That was simply the point, no matter what they were alluding to.
Neither of your scripural references were talking about or alluding to preaching, only talking.
Not to be a stickler, but the scripture does support this.
Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Marc... I didn't mean to imply that the scripture did not support the act of verbally speaking to people. But I think you are being quite the literalist when it comes to the ideas that JanJ and Ninja are suggesting and limiting the act of "preaching" in only the current traditional sense of the word.
And (not to be a stickler as well) the Greek translation of Rom 10:14 is actually best translated in the NASB (a more literal translation of the greek) and it says And how will they hear without a preacher?
The word preacher is the greek word "kerusso" which means (from Strong's) "to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):--preacher(-er), proclaim, publish."
There is nothing really special or different between "preaching" and "talking".
You could actually translate Romans 10:14 as "And how can they hear without someone telling them?" or "talking to them".
I think you can agree with me that sharing your faith with someone must be more than just merely "preaching" at them and it can come in other forms of communication as well. It can (and must in my opinion) also be illustrated through our actions towards them... or to reiterate what JandJ quoted with Assisi (as also with the Matt 25 passage)....
we should preach (or proclaim or talk about) the Gospel to everyone we meet, and sometimes this might actually necessitate using words.
I don't recall Jesus, Paul, Barnabus, John the Baptist, or Peter miming their message.
The message requires a messinger, to give a message it must be spoken. Preach it loud or say it soft, your call. BUT it must be spoken.
Your actions can open the door, but once the door is open you better have something to say or the only point of your actions are to be seen.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home